If I have a process that starts X amount of threads, will there ever be a performance gain having X higher than the number of CPU cores (assuming all the threads are working synchronously without async calls to storage/network)?
E.G. If I have a two cores CPU, will I just slow down the application starting 3+ constantly working threads?
It really depends on what your code does. it is too broad.
Having more threads than cores might speed up the program for example if some of the threads sleep or try to block on a lock. in this case, the OS scheduler can wake different thread and that thread will work while the other thread is sleeping.
Having more threads than the number of cores may also decrease the program execution time because the OS scheduler has to do more work to switch between the threads execution and that scheduling might be a heavy operation.
As always, benchmarking your application with different amount of threads is the best way to achieve maximum performance. there are also algorithms (like Hill-Climbing) which may help the application fine tune the best number of threads on runtime.
It is possible that such a thing happens.
Both Intel and AMD currently implement forms of SMT in their CPUs. This means that, in general, one single thread of execution may not be able to exploit 100% of the computing resources.
This happens because modern CPUs execute instructions in multiple pipelined steps, so that the clock frequency can be increased (less stuff gets done in every cycle, so you can do more cycles). The downside of this approach is that, if you have two consecutive instructions A and B, with the latter depending on the result of the former, you may have to wait some clock cycles without doing anything, just waiting for instruction A to complete. So, they came up with SMT, which allows the CPU to interleave instructions from two different threads/processes on the same pipeline, in order to fill such gaps.
Note: it is not exactly like this, CPUs don't just wait. They try to guess the result of the first operation and execute the second assuming that result. If their guess is wrong, they cancel the pending instructions and start over. Also, they have some feedback circuits that allow tighter execution of interdependent instructions. And nowadays branch predictors are surprisingly good. Things get better for the pipeline if you can just fill gaps with instructions from some other process, rather than going with a guess, but this potentially halves the amount of cache each executing thread can use.
It makes sense to run more threads if your threads make read/write/send/recv syscalls or similar, or sleep on locks, etc.
If your threads are pure computation threads, adding more of them will slow down system because of context switches.
If you still need more threads by design, you might want to look into the cooperative multitasking. Both Windows and Linux have API for that and that will work faster than the context switches. In Windows it called fibers:
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms682661(v=vs.85).aspx
In Linux it is a set of functions make/get/swapcontext():
http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/makecontext.3.html
This question: Optimal number of threads per core might help you.
In the thread I wrote an answer describing a scenario when having higher number of threads than the available number of cores boosts performance.
Related
Imagine that I have two tasks, each of them needs 2 seconds to finish its job.
In this case, if I create two threads for each of them and my PC is single-core, this won't save any time. Am I right ?
What if I use fork to create two processes (the machine is still single-core) and each process takes charge of one task ? Can this save any time ?
If not, I have a question:
In current modern machine (including multi-core), if I have several heavy tasks, which method should I use ?
fork ?
thread ?
fork + thread, meaning that create some processes and
each process contains more than one thread ?
Even with a single core having two threads may speed up execution. If your routine is purely CPU bound then two threads won't improve anything, indeed the performance will be worse because of context switching overhead. But if the routine has to wait for memory, disk or or network (which is usually the case) then two threads will provide performance gains even with a single core.
About fork vs threads, threads require less resources so, in principle, should be the first choice. But there are two caveats: 1) maybe you want to be able to terminate a parallel routine, this is much safer to do with processes than with threads and 2) some languages (notably Python and Ruby) provide pseudo-thread libraries which do not use real threads but switch between routines using the same thread. This simulated threading can be very useful for example when waiting for network requests but it must be taken into account that it's not real multithreading.
Amendment: As commented by Sergio Tulentsev, Ruby and Python do indeed provide real threads and not only coroutines.
"job takes 2 seconds" - If those 2 seconds are fully occupying the CPU (100% load), you won't gain anything with either thread nor fork if you have no cores to share. The single-core CPU is simply busy and you cannnot make it more busy.
In case this 2 seconds include waiting time (for example on I/O, storage, whatever) you could gain something, even with a single core. The amount of gain depends on the CPU working vs. CPU waiting ratio and the overhead of your multiprocessing. Most non-trivial programs have at least some amount of "CPU waiting", so multithreading is often useful even on single-core CPUs.
This overhead for setting up a coroutine and context switching can be considerable and needs to be measured. Obviously, the shorter the run time of your actiual task is, the larger will be the ratio of overhead (for setting up a thread or process, etc.) and the smaller will be you multi-processing gain.
Traditionally, threads used to have considerably less overhead than processes (after all, that was why they were invented), but the "considerably" has maybe vanished over time - On modern Linux systems, processes are only a tad slower to set up than threads (actually, both use the same system calls). You rather decide between thread or process based on the requirements related to amount of protection (or sharing) of data than execution speed.
I am writing a CPU-intensive image processing library. To make best use of available CPU, I can detect the total number of cores on my machine and have my library run with that number of threads. When my library to allocate one thread for each core it performs optimally using 100% available processor time.
The above approach works fine when mine is the only CPU-heavy process running. If another CPU-intensive process is running, or even another instance of my own code, then the OS allocates us only a fraction of the available cores and my library then has too many threads running which is both inefficient and inconsiderate to other processes.
So I would like to find a way to determine the "fair share" number of threads to run given a specific load. For example, if two instances of my process are running on an 8-core machine, each would run with 4 threads. Each would need a way to adapt thread count dynamically according to fluctuations in machine load.
So, my question:
Is there any OS feature or third-party library which allows my process to adapt thread count dynamically to use its fair share of the CPU?
My focus is Windows but interested in non-Windows solutions too.
Edit: to be clear, this is about optimization. I am trying to achieve peak efficiency by running the optimal number of threads appropriate to my fair share of the CPU.
In my eyes, the application shouldnt decide how many threads to spawn. This is an information, that the caller should know. In linux, the "-j" or "--jobs" parameter is widely used (Default: 1).
What about also setting the priority of the processing tasks. So if the caller knows, the processing is mission-critical, he can increase the prio (with the knowledge of maybe blocking the (whole) system). Your processing lib would never know, how important the processing of this image would be.
If the caller doesnt care, then the default low-prio is used, which shouldnt affect the rest of the system. If it does, you should look to what is exactly blocking the system (maybe writing image files to the hdd, reduce ram size to prevent swapping, ...). If you figured out that, you can optimize exactly that point.
If you start the processing with (cpu-cores)*2 on low till normal priority, your system should be useable. No one would expect, that this will kill the system.
Just my 2 cents.
Actually it's not a problem of multithreading but a problem of executing many programs simultaneously. This is hard on most PC's operating systems because it conflicts to the idea of time-sharing.
Let's assume some workflow.
Suppose we have 8 cores and we create 8 threads to feed them; ok, that's easy. Next we choose to monitor core loading to summary how many tasks running on a certain core; well, that needs some statistical assumptions, e.g on Linux you can get a 1/5/15-mins load average chart, but that could be done. The statistical chart is clear and now we get a plot about how many CPU-bound processes are running, say, seeing other 3 CPU-intensive processes.
Then we come to the point: we have to make 3 redundant threads to sleep, but which 3?
Usually we choose 3 threads arbitrarily because the scheduler arranges the other 8 CPU-bound threads automatically. In some cases, we explicitly put threads on high load cores to sleep, assign other threads to certain low load cores, and let the scheduler do the rest things. Most scheduling policies also try to "keep CPU cache hot", which means they tend to forbid transferring threads between cores. We reasonably expect our CPU-intensive threads can utilize the core cache since other processes are scheduled to the 3 crowded cores. Everything looks good.
However this could fail in tightly synchronized computation. In this scenario we need to run our 5 threads simultaneously. Simultaneity here means the 5 threads have to gain CPU and run at almost the same time. I don't know if there's any scheduler on PC could do this for us. In most low-load cases, things still work fine because costs to wait for simultaneity is trivial. But when the load of a core is high and even 1 of our 5 threads is disturbed, occasionally we'll find we spend many life cycles in waiting.
It may help to schedule your program as a real-time program but it's not a perfect solution. Statistically it leads to a wider time window for simultaneity when it gains more CPU control priority. I have to say, it's not guaranteed.
I've just started programming with POSIX threads on dual-core x86_64 Linux system. It seems that 256 threads is about the optimum for performance with the way I've done it. I'm wondering how this could be? And if it could mean that my approach is wrong and a better approach would require far fewer threads and be just as fast or faster?
For further background (the program in question is a skeleton for a multi-threaded M-set image generator) see the following questions I've asked already:
Using threads, how should I deal with something which ideally should happen in sequential order?
How can my threaded image generating app get it’s data to the gui?
Perhaps I should mention that the skeleton (in which I've reproduced minimal functionality for testing and comparison) is now displaying the image, and the actual calculations are done almost twice as fast as the non-threaded program.
So if 256 threads running faster than 8 threads is not indicative of a poor approach to threading, how come 256 threads does outperform 8 threads?
The speed test case is a portion of the Mandelbrot Set located at:
xmin -0.76243636067708333333333328
xmax -0.7624335575810185185185186
ymax 0.077996663411458333333333929
calculated to a maximum of 30000 iterations.
On the non-threaded version rendering time on my system is around 15 seconds. On the threaded version, averages speed for 8 threads is 7.8 seconds, while 256 threads is 7.6 seconds.
Well, probably yes, you're doing something wrong.
However, there are circumstances where 256 threads would run better than 8 without you necessarily having a bad threading model. One must remember that having 8 threads does not mean all 8 threads are actually running all the time. Anytime one thread makes a blocking syscall to the operating system, the thread will stop running and wait for the result. In the meantime, another thread can often do work.
There's this myth that one can't usefully use more threads than contexts on the CPU, but that's just not true. If your threads block on a syscall, it can be critical to have another thread available to do more work. (In practice when threads block there tends to be less work to do, but this is not always the case.)
It's all very dependent on work-load and there's no one right number of threads for any particular application. Generally you never want less threads available than the OS will run, and that's the only true rule. (Unfortunately this can be very hard to find out and so people tend to just fire up as many threads as contexts and then use non-blocking syscalls where possible.)
Could it be your app is io bound? How is the image data generated?
A performance improvement gained by allocating more threads than cores suggests that the CPU is not the bottleneck. If I/O access such as disk, memory or even network access are involved your results make perfect sense.
You are probably benefitting from Simultaneous Multithreading (SMT). Your operating system schedules more threads than cores available, and will swap in and out the threads that are not stalled waiting for resources (such as a memory load). This can very effectively hide the latencies of your memory system from your program and is the technique used to great effect for massive parallelization in CUDA for general purpose GPU programming.
If you are seeing a performance increase with the jump to 256 threads, then what you are probably dealing with is a resource bottleneck. At some point, your code is waiting for some slow device (a hard disk or a network connection, for example) in order to continue. With multiple threads, waiting on this slow device isn't a problem because instead of sitting idle and twiddling its electronic thumbs, the CPU can process another thread while the first thread is waiting on the slow device. The more parallel threads that are running, the more work the CPU can do while it is waiting on something else.
If you are seeing performance improve all the way up to 256 threads, I am tempted to say that you have a major performance bottleneck somewhere and it's not the CPU. To test this, try to see if you can measure the idle time of individual threads. I suspect that you will see your threads are stuck in a "blocked" or "waiting" state for a longer portion of their lifetime than they spend in the "running" or "active" state. Some debuggers or function profiling tools will let you do this, and I think there are also Linux tools to do this on the command line.
I was very confused but the following thread cleared my doubts:
Multiprocessing, Multithreading,HyperThreading, Multi-core
But it addresses the queries from the hardware point of view. I want to know how these hardware features are mapped to software?
One thing that is obvious is that there is no difference between MultiProcessor(=Mutlicpu) and MultiCore other than that in multicore all cpus reside on one chip(die) where as in Multiprocessor all cpus are on their own chips & connected together.
So, mutlicore/multiprocessor systems are capable of executing multiple processes (firefox,mediaplayer,googletalk) at the "sametime" (unlike context switching these processes on a single processor system) Right?
If it correct. I'm clear so far. But the confusion arises when multithreading comes into picture.
MultiThreading "is for" parallel processing. right?
What are elements that are involved in multithreading inside cpu? diagram? For me to exploit the power of parallel processing of two independent tasks, what should be the requriements of CPU?
When people say context switching of threads. I don't really get it. because if its context switching of threads then its not parallel processing. the threads must be executed "scrictly simultaneously". right?
My notion of multithreading is that:
Considering a system with single cpu. when process is context switched to firefox. (suppose) each tab of firefox is a thread and all the threads are executing strictly at the same time. Not like one thread has executed for sometime then again another thread has taken until the context switch time is arrived.
What happens if I run a multithreaded software on a processor which can't handle threads? I mean how does the cpu handle such software?
If everything is good so far, now question is HOW MANY THREADS? It must be limited by hardware, I guess? If hardware can support only 2 threads and I start 10 threads in my process. How would cpu handle it? Pros/Cons? From software engineering point of view, while developing a software that will be used by the users in wide variety of systems, Then how would I decide should I go for multithreading? if so, how many threads?
First, try to understand the concept of 'process' and 'thread'. A thread is a basic unit for execution: a thread is scheduled by operating system and executed by CPU. A process is a sort of container that holds multiple threads.
Yes, either multi-processing or multi-threading is for parallel processing. More precisely, to exploit thread-level parallelism.
Okay, multi-threading could mean hardware multi-threading (one example is HyperThreading). But, I assume that you just say multithreading in software. In this sense, CPU should support context switching.
Context switching is needed to implement multi-tasking even in a physically single core by time division.
Say there are two physical cores and four very busy threads. In this case, two threads are just waiting until they will get the chance to use CPU. Read some articles related to preemptive OS scheduling.
The number of thread that can physically run in concurrent is just identical to # of logical processors. You are asking a general thread scheduling problem in OS literature such as round-robin..
I strongly suggest you to study basics of operating system first. Then move on multithreading issues. It seems like you're still unclear for the key concepts such as context switching and scheduling. It will take a couple of month, but if you really want to be an expert in computer software, then you should know such very basic concepts. Please take whatever OS books and lecture slides.
Threads running on the same core are not technically parallel. They only appear to be executed in parallel, as the CPU switches between them very fast (for us, humans). This switch is what is called context switch.
Now, threads executing on different cores are executed in parallel.
Most modern CPUs have a number of cores, however, most modern OSes (windows, linux and friends) usually execute much larger number of threads, which still causes context switches.
Even if no user program is executed, still OS itself performs context switches for maintanance work.
This should answer 1-3.
About 4: basically, every processor can work with threads. it is much more a characteristic of operating system. Thread is basically: memory (optional), stack and registers, once those are replaced you are in another thread.
5: the number of threads is pretty high and is limited by OS. Usually it is higher than regular programmer can successfully handle :)
The number of threads is dictated by your program:
is it IO bound?
can the task be divided into a number of smaller tasks?
how small is the task? the task can be too small to make it worth to spawn threads at all.
synchronization: if extensive synhronization is required, the penalty might be too heavy and you should reduce the number of threads.
Multiple threads are separate 'chains' of commands within one process. From CPU point of view threads are more or less like processes. Each thread has its own set of registers and its own stack.
The reason why you can have more threads than CPUs is that most threads don't need CPU all the time. Thread can be waiting for user input, downloading something from the web or writing to disk. While it is doing that, it does not need CPU, so CPU is free to execute other threads.
In your example, each tab of Firefox probably can even have several threads. Or they can share some threads. You need one for downloading, one for rendering, one for message loop (user input), and perhaps one to run Javascript. You cannot easily combine them because while you download you still need to react to user's input. However, download thread is sleeping most of the time, and even when it's downloading it needs CPU only occasionally, and message loop thread only wakes up when you press a button.
If you go to task manager you'll see that despite all these threads your CPU use is still quite low.
Of course if all your threads do some number-crunching tasks, then you shouldn't create too many of them as you get no performance benefit (though there may be architectural benefits!).
However, if they are mainly I/O bound then create as many threads as your architecture dictates. It's hard to give advice without knowing your particular task.
Broadly speaking, yeah, but "parallel" can mean different things.
It depends what tasks you want to run in parallel.
Not necessarily. Some (indeed most) threads spend a lot of time doing nothing. Might as well switch away from them to a thread that wants to do something.
The OS handles thread switching. It will delegate to different cores if it wants to. If there's only one core it'll divide time between the different threads and processes.
The number of threads is limited by software and hardware. Threads consume processor and memory in varying degrees depending on what they're doing. The thread management software may impose its own limits as well.
The key thing to remember is the separation between logical/virtual parallelism and real/hardware parallelism. With your average OS, a system call is performed to spawn a new thread. What actually happens (whether it is mapped to a different core, a different hardware thread on the same core, or queued into the pool of software threads) is up to the OS.
Parallel processing uses all the methods not just multi-threading.
Generally speaking, if you want to have real parallel processing, you need to perform it in hardware. Take the example of the Niagara, it has up to 8-cores each capable of executing 4-threads in hardware.
Context switching is needed when there are more threads than is capable of being executed in parallel in hardware. Even then, when executed in series (switching between one thread to the next), they are considered concurrent because there is no guarantee on the order of switching. So, it may go T0, T1, T2, T1, T3, T0, T2 and so on. For all intents and purposes, the threads are parallel.
Time slicing.
That would be up to the OS.
Multithreading is the execution of more than one thread at a time. It can happen both on single core processors and the multicore processor systems. For single processor systems, context switching effects it. Look!Context switching in this computational environment refers to time slicing by the operating system. Therefore do not get confused. The operating system is the one that controls the execution of other programs. It allows one program to execute in the CPU at a time. But the frequency at which the threads are switched in and out of the CPU determines the transparency of parallelism exhibited by the system.
For multicore environment,multithreading occurs when each core executes a thread.Though,in multicore again,context switching can occur in the individual cores.
I think answers so far are pretty much to the point and give you a good basic context. In essence, say you have quad core processor, but each core is capable of executing 2 simultaneous threads.
Note, that there is only slight (or no) increase of speed if you are running 2 simultaneous threads on 1 core versus you run 1st thread and then 2nd thread vertically. However, each physical core adds speed to your general workflow.
Now, say you have a process running on your OS that has multiple threads (i.e. needs to run multiple things in "parallel") and has some kind of stack of tasks in a queue (or some other system with priority rules). Then software sends tasks to a queue and your processor attempts to execute them as fast as it can. Now you have 2 cases:
If a software supports multiprocessing, then tasks will be sent to any available processor (that is not doing anything or simply finished doing some other job and job send from your software is 1st in a queue).
If your software does not support multiprocessing, then all of your jobs will be done in a similar manner, but only by one of your cores.
I suggest reading Wikipedia page on thread. Very first picture there already gives you a nice insight. :)
5, 100, 1000?
I guess, "it depends", but on what?
What is common in applications that run as server daemons / services?
What are hard limits?
Given that the machine can handle the overall workload, how do I determine at how many threads the overhead starts to have an impact on performance?
What are important differences between OS's?
What else should be considered?
I'm asking because I would like to employ threads in an application to organize subcomponents of my application that do not share data and are designed to do their work in parallel. As the application would also use thread pools for parallelizing some tasks, I was wondering at what point I should start to think about the number of threads that's going to run in total.
I know the n+1 rule as a guideline for determining the number of threads that simultaneously work on the same task to gain performance. However, I want to use threads like one might use processes in a larger scope, i. e. to organize independent tasks that should not interfere with each other.
In this related question, some people advise to minimise the number of threads because of the added complexity. To me it seems that threads can also help to keep things sorted more orderly and actually reduce interference. Isn't that correct?
I can't answer your question about "how much is many" but I agree that you should not use threads for every task possible.
The optimal amount of threads for performance of application is (n+1), where n is the amount of processors/cores your computer/claster has.
The more your actual thread amount differs from n+1, the less optimal it gets and gets your system resources wasted on thread calculations.
So usually you use 1 thread for the UI, 1 thread for some generic tasks, and (n+1) threads for some huge-calculation tasks.
Actually Ajmastrean is a little out of date. Quoting from his own link
The thread pool has a default size of
250 worker threads per available
processor, and 1000 I/O completion
threads. The number of threads in the
thread pool can be changed by using
the SetMaxThreads method.
But generally I think 25 is really where the law of diminishing returns (and programmers abilities to keep track of what is going on) starts coming into effect. Although Max is right, as long as all of the threads are performing non-blocking calculations n+1 is the optimal number, in the real world most of the threading tasks I perform tend to be done on stuff with some kind of IO.
Also depends on your architecture. E.g. in NVIDIA GPGPU lib CUDA you can put on an 8 thread multiprocessor 512 threads simoultanously. You may ask why assign each of the scalar processors 64 threads? The answer is easy: If the computation is not compute bound but memory IO bound, you can hide the mem latencies by executing other threads. Similar applies to normal CPUs. I can remember that a recommendation for the parallel option for make "-j" is to use approx 1.5 times the number of cores you got. Many of the compiling tasks are heavy IO burden and if a task has to wait for harddisk, mem ... whatever, CPU could work on a different thread.
Next you have to consider, how expensive a task/thread switch is. E.g. it is comes free, while CPU has to perform some work for a context switch. So in general you have to estimate if the penalty for two task switches is longer than the time the thread would block (which depends heavily on your applications).
Microsoft's ThreadPool class limits you to 25 threads per processor. The limit is based on context switching between threads and the memory consumed by each thread. So, that's a good guideline if you're on the Windows platform.