I'm trying to visualize some simple automatic physical systems (such things as pendulum, robot arms,etc.) in Haskell.
Often those systems can be described by equations like
df/dt = c*f(t) + u(t)
where u(t) represents some kind of 'intelligent control'. Those systems look to fit very nicely in the Functional Reactive Programming paradigm.
So I grabbed the book "The Haskell School of Expression" by Paul Hudak,
and found that the domain specific language "FAL" (for Functional Animation Language) presented there actually works quite pleasently for my simple toy systems (although some functions, notably integrate, seemed to be a bit too lazy for an efficient use, but easily fixable).
My question is, what's the more mature, up-to-date, well-maintained, performance-tuned alternative for more advanced, or even practical applications today?
This wiki page lists several options for Haskell, but I'm not clear about the following respects:
The status of "reactive", the project from Conal Eliott who is (as I understand it) one of the inventers of this programming paradigm, looks a bit stale. I love his code, but maybe I should try other more up-to-date alternatives? What's the primary difference between them, in terms of syntax/performance/runtime-stability?
To quote from a survey in 2011, Section 6, "... FRP implementations are still not efficient enough or predictable enough in performance to be used effectively in domains which require latency guarantees ...". Alghough the survey suggests some interesting possible optimizations, given the fact that FRP is there for more than 15 years, I get the impression that this performance problem might be something very or even inherently difficult to solve at least within a few years. Is this true?
The same author of the survey talks about "time leaks" in his blog. Is the problem unique to FRP, or something we are generally having when programming in a pure, non-strict language? Have you ever found it just too difficult to stabilize an FRP-based system over time, if not performant enough?
Is this still a research level project? Are the people like plant engineers, robotics engineers, financial engineers, etc. actually using them (in whaterver language that suits their needs)?
Although I personally prefer a Haskell implementation, I'm open to other suggestions. For example, it would be particularly fun to have an Erlang implementation --- it would then be very easy to have an intelligent, adaptive, self-learning server process!
Right now there are mainly two practical Haskell libraries out there for functional reactive programming. Both are maintained by single persons, but are receiving code contributions from other Haskell programmers as well:
Netwire focusses on efficiency, flexibility and predictability. It has its own event paradigm and can be used in areas where traditional FRP does not work, including network services and complex simulations. Style: applicative and/or arrowized. Initial author and maintainer: Ertugrul Söylemez (this is me).
reactive-banana builds on the traditional FRP paradigm. While it is practical to use it also serves as ground for classic FRP research. Its main focus is on user interfaces and there is a ready-made interface to wx. Style: applicative. Initial author and maintainer: Heinrich Apfelmus.
You should try both of them, but depending on your application you will likely find one or the other to be a better fit.
For games, networking, robot control and simulations you will find Netwire to be useful. It comes with ready-made wires for those applications, including various useful differentials, integrals and lots of functionality for transparent event handling. For a tutorial visit the documentation of the Control.Wire module on the page I linked.
For graphical user interfaces currently your best choice is reactive-banana. It already has a wx interface (as a separate library reactive-banana-wx) and Heinrich blogs a lot about FRP in this context including code samples.
To answer your other questions: FRP isn't suitable in scenarios where you need real-time predictability. This is largely due to Haskell, but unfortunately FRP is difficult to realize in lower level languages. As soon as Haskell itself becomes real-time-ready, FRP will get there, too. Conceptually Netwire is ready for real-time applications.
Time leaks aren't really a problem anymore, because they are largely related to the monadic framework. Practical FRP implementations simply don't offer a monadic interface. Yampa has started this and Netwire and reactive-banana both build on that.
I know of no commercial or otherwise large scale projects using FRP right now. The libraries are ready, but I think the people aren't – yet.
Although there are some good answers already, I'm going to attempt to answer your specific questions.
reactive is not usable for serious projects, due to time leak problems. (see #3). The current library with the most similar design is reactive-banana, which was developed with reactive as an inspiration, and in discussion with Conal Elliott.
Although Haskell itself is inappropriate for hard real-time applications, it is possible to use Haskell for soft realtime applications in some cases. I'm not familiar with current research, but I don't believe this is an insurmountable problem. I suspect that either systems like Yampa, or code generation systems like Atom, are possibly the best approach to solving this.
A "time leak" is a problem specific to switchable FRP. The leak occurs when a system is unable to free old objects because it may need them if a switch were to occur at some point in the future. In addition to a memory leak (which can be quite severe), another consequence is that, when the switch occurs, the system must pause while the chain of old objects is traversed to generate current state.
Non-switchable frp libraries such as Yampa and older versions of reactive-banana don't suffer from time leaks. Switchable frp libraries generally employ one of two schemes: either they have a special "creation monad" in which FRP values are created, or they use an "aging" type parameter to limit the contexts in which switches can occur. elerea (and possibly netwire?) use the former, whereas recent reactive-banana and grapefruit use the latter.
By "switchable frp", I mean one which implements Conal's function switcher :: Behavior a -> Event (Behavior a) -> Behavior a, or identical semantics. This means that the shape of the network can dynamically switch as it's run.
This doesn't really contradict #ertes's statement about monadic interfaces: it turns out that providing a Monad instance for an Event makes time leaks possible, and with either of the above approaches it's no longer possible to define the equivalent Monad instances.
Finally, although there's still a lot of work remaining to be done with FRP, I think some of the newer platforms (reactive-banana, elerea, netwire) are stable and mature enough that you can build reliable code from them. But you may need to spend a lot of time learning the ins and outs in order to understand how to get good performance.
I'm going to list a couple of items in the Mono and .Net space and one from the Haskell space that I found not too long ago. I'll start with Haskell.
Elm - link
Its description as per its site:
Elm aims to make front-end web development more pleasant. It
introduces a new approach to GUI programming that corrects the
systemic problems of HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Elm allows you to
quickly and easily work with visual layout, use the canvas, manage
complicated user input, and escape from callback hell.
It has its own variant of FRP. From playing with its examples it seems pretty mature.
Reactive Extensions - link
Description from its front page:
The Reactive Extensions (Rx) is a library for composing asynchronous
and event-based programs using observable sequences and LINQ-style
query operators. Using Rx, developers represent asynchronous data
streams with Observables, query asynchronous data streams using LINQ
operators, and parameterize the concurrency in the asynchronous data
streams using Schedulers. Simply put, Rx = Observables + LINQ +
Schedulers.
Reactive Extensions comes from MSFT and implements many excellent operators that simplify handling events. It was open sourced just a couple of days ago. It's very mature and used in production; in my opinion it would have been a nicer API for the Windows 8 APIs than the TPL-library provides; because observables can be both hot and cold and retried/merged etc, while tasks always represent hot or done computations that are either running, faulted or completed.
I've written server-side code using Rx for asynchronocity, but I must admit that writing functionally in C# can be a bit annoying. F# has a couple of wrappers, but it's been hard to track the API development, because the group is relatively closed and isn't promoted by MSFT like other projects are.
Its open sourcing came with the open sourcing of its IL-to-JS compiler, so it could probably work well with JavaScript or Elm.
You could probably bind F#/C#/JS/Haskell together very nicely using a message broker, like RabbitMQ and SocksJS.
Bling UI Toolkit - link
Description from its front page:
Bling is a C#-based library for easily programming images, animations,
interactions, and visualizations on Microsoft's WPF/.NET. Bling is
oriented towards design technologists, i.e., designers who sometimes
program, to aid in the rapid prototyping of rich UI design ideas.
Students, artists, researchers, and hobbyists will also find Bling
useful as a tool for quickly expressing ideas or visualizations.
Bling's APIs and constructs are optimized for the fast programming of
throw away code as opposed to the careful programming of production
code.
Complimentary LtU-article.
I've tested this, but not worked with it for a client project. It looks awesome, has nice C# operator overloading that form the bindings between values. It uses dependency properties in WPF/SL/(WinRT) as event sources. Its 3D animations work well on reasonable hardware. I would use this if I end up on a project in need for visualizations; probably porting it to Windows 8.
ReactiveUI - link
Paul Betts, previously at MSFT, now at Github, wrote that framework. I've worked with it pretty extensively and like the model. It's more decoupled than Blink (by its nature from using Rx and its abstractions) - making it easier to unit test code using it. The github git client for Windows is written in this.
Comments
The reactive model is performant enough for most performance-demanding applications. If you are thinking of hard real-time, I'd wager that most GC-languages have problems. Rx, ReactiveUI create some amount of small object that need to be GCed, because that's how subscriptions are created/disposed and intermediate values are progressed in the reactive "monad" of callbacks. In general on .Net I prefer reactive programming over task-based programming because callbacks are static (known at compile time, no allocation) while tasks are dynamically allocated (not known, all calls need an instance, garbage created) - and lambdas compile into compiler-generated classes.
Obviously C# and F# are strictly evaluated, so time-leak isn't a problem here. Same for JS. It can be a problem with replayable or cached observables though.
Related
In my very first impression of Haskell, it's a language can handle "execute-then-result" things amazingly well. But I can't find how to implement "event-driven" things like games, or HTTP/FTP/TCPSocket servers.
This question got answered after I read some papers about FRP, include Yampa and the FPS game created by it ( Frag ). It seems that the FRP is a nice model to implement "heavy" event-driven things like 3D game, but how about slighter event-driven applications like HTTP servers or normal desktop GUI programs ? What cons will appear if I use FRP to implement all these things ?
FRP is a very general technique and could almost certainly be used to implement anything that would normally use events. In the classical rendition of FRP, one of the core abstractions is the event. The difference is that instead of operating on events individually with callbacks, you operate on streams of events.
You should be able to render any normal event-driven code in terms of streams of events; the only difficulty would be in binding your streams with existing, external code like a GUI toolkit; however, this is more tedious than tricky. So I don't see any fundamental issue preventing you from using FRP anywhere you would use events in a different language.
In fact, I've had some good experiences using FRP for exactly what you call "lighter": simple GUI programs. I've used reactive banana with wxWidgets to write some very simple little graphical programs. I found the resulting code to be much simpler, easier to write and easier to read than the equivalent callback-based code would have been.
Reactive Banana can also be used for things like music, so it's clearly widely applicable. I haven't tried anything except GUI programming with it, but others have so it has to be possible.
Additionally, you should check out Elm which is an ML-style language for implementing web apps with FRP. It generates everything you need: HTML, CSS and JavaScript. I believe it even handles communication with the server. I haven't tried it, but it looks very nice.
So, people are clearly using FRP in a wide variety of domains, including ones that aren't "heavy". But this does not mean you should use it everywhere!
For one, it is possible to get unpredictable space and time behavior. I know that the creators of both Reactive Banana and Elm put a lot of effort into reducing these, but I suspect there is still some risk. I know I had some very odd space leaks when playing around with Reactive Banana WX, so it's certainly something to look out for. It might be harder to deal with these with FRP than with event-drive code you're used to working with. Of course, I've had inexplicable memory leaks with standard JavaScript, so non-FRP code isn't immune to this either!
Another consideration is that FRP may not be the best or clearest abstraction for your particular task. While it's great for things that have to be fully reactive, what about code that is very simple, like a web server? (I mean simple as in different requests probably do not interact too closely with each other.) I imagine having a web framework that handled large amounts of requests using a programming model based on FRP would be possible; I just don't think it would be optimal.
In fact, my understanding is that the GHC IO system is actually already event-driven under the hood, so you can write web servers in a standard programming style and get the benefits of using events for free. So, for web server code, a simpler underlying abstraction may be a better choice. I believe that's what existing frameworks like Snap and Yesod do--neither uses a reactive programming style, but both are still pleasant to use.
You do not need to use anything beyond "simple" Haskell to implement event driven games. I am currently writing a FPS using Haskell with the following (VERY high level) "architecture":
uiMake :: IO ([UIEvent],UIState)
uiTick :: UIState -> [ApEvent] -> IO ([UIEvent],UIState)
apMake :: ([ApEvent],ApState)
apTick :: ApState -> [UIEvent] -> ([ApEvent],ApState)
-- UIState = The state of the UI
-- ApState = The state of the application (game)
-- UIEvent = Key presses, screen resolution changes etc.
-- ApEvent = Entity movements etc.
It works great. No need for lenses, FRP or anything else "exotic".
I've read a lot of articles about distributed Haskell. Much work has been done but seems to be in the area of distributing computations. I saw the remote package which seems to implement Erlang-style messaging passing but it is 0.1 and early stage.
I'd like to implement a system where there are many separate processes that provide distinct services, and are tied together by several main processes. This seems to be a natural fit for Erlang, but not so for Haskell. But I like Haskell's type safety.
Has there been any recent adoption of Erlang-style process management in Haskell?
If you want to learn more about the remote package, a.k.a CloudHaskell, see the paper as well as Jeff Epstein's thesis. It aims to provide precisely the actor abstraction you want, but as you say it is in the early stages. There is active discussion regarding improvements on the parallel-haskell mailing list, so if you have specific needs that remote doesn't provide, we'd be happy for you to jump in and help us decide its future directions.
More mature but lower-level than remote is the haskell-mpi package. If you stick to the Simple interface, messages can be sent containing arbitrary Serialize instances, but the abstraction is still way lower than remote.
There are some experimental systems, such as described in Implementing a High-level Distributed-Memory Parallel Haskell in Haskell (Patrick Maier and Phil Trinder, IFL 2011, can't find a pdf online). It blends a monad-par approach of deterministic dataflow parallelism with a limited ability to make the I-structures serializable over the network. These sorts of abstraction have promise for doing distributed computation, but since the focus is on computing purely-functional values rather than providing Erlang-style processes, they probably wouldn't be a good fit for your application.
Also, for completeness, I should point out the Haskell wiki page on cloud and HPC Haskell, which covers what I describe here, as well as the subsection on distributed Haskell, which seems in need of a refresh.
I frequently get the feeling that IPC and actors are an oversold feature. There are plenty of attractive messaging systems out there that have Haskell bindings e.g. MessagePack, 0MQ or Thrift. IMHO the only thing you have to add is proper addressing of processes and decide who/what is managing this addressing capability.
By the way: a number of coders adopt e.g. 0MQ into their Erlang environments, simply because it offers the possibility to structure messaging via message brokers rather then relying on pure process to process messaging in super scale.
In a "massively multicore world" I personally assume that shared memory approaches will eventually be outperforming messaging. Someone can then always come and argue with asynchrony of course. But already when you write that you want to "tie together" your processes by "several main processes" you in fact speak about synchronization. Also, you can of course challenge whether a single function, process or thread is the right level of parallelization.
In short: I would probably see whether MessagePack or 0MQ could fit my needs in Haskell and care for the rest in my code.
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What is a good way to design/structure large functional programs, especially in Haskell?
I've been through a bunch of the tutorials (Write Yourself a Scheme being my favorite, with Real World Haskell a close second) - but most of the programs are relatively small, and single-purpose. Additionally, I don't consider some of them to be particularly elegant (for example, the vast lookup tables in WYAS).
I'm now wanting to write larger programs, with more moving parts - acquiring data from a variety of different sources, cleaning it, processing it in various ways, displaying it in user interfaces, persisting it, communicating over networks, etc. How could one best structure such code to be legible, maintainable, and adaptable to changing requirements?
There is quite a large literature addressing these questions for large object-oriented imperative programs. Ideas like MVC, design patterns, etc. are decent prescriptions for realizing broad goals like separation of concerns and reusability in an OO style. Additionally, newer imperative languages lend themselves to a 'design as you grow' style of refactoring to which, in my novice opinion, Haskell appears less well-suited.
Is there an equivalent literature for Haskell? How is the zoo of exotic control structures available in functional programming (monads, arrows, applicative, etc.) best employed for this purpose? What best practices could you recommend?
Thanks!
EDIT (this is a follow-up to Don Stewart's answer):
#dons mentioned: "Monads capture key architectural designs in types."
I guess my question is: how should one think about key architectural designs in a pure functional language?
Consider the example of several data streams, and several processing steps. I can write modular parsers for the data streams to a set of data structures, and I can implement each processing step as a pure function. The processing steps required for one piece of data will depend on its value and others'. Some of the steps should be followed by side-effects like GUI updates or database queries.
What's the 'Right' way to tie the data and the parsing steps in a nice way? One could write a big function which does the right thing for the various data types. Or one could use a monad to keep track of what's been processed so far and have each processing step get whatever it needs next from the monad state. Or one could write largely separate programs and send messages around (I don't much like this option).
The slides he linked have a Things we Need bullet: "Idioms for mapping design onto
types/functions/classes/monads". What are the idioms? :)
I talk a bit about this in Engineering Large Projects in Haskell and in the Design and Implementation of XMonad. Engineering in the large is about managing complexity. The primary code structuring mechanisms in Haskell for managing complexity are:
The type system
Use the type system to enforce abstractions, simplifying interactions.
Enforce key invariants via types
(e.g. that certain values cannot escape some scope)
That certain code does no IO, does not touch the disk
Enforce safety: checked exceptions (Maybe/Either), avoid mixing concepts (Word, Int, Address)
Good data structures (like zippers) can make some classes of testing needless, as they rule out e.g. out of bounds errors statically.
The profiler
Provide objective evidence of your program's heap and time profiles.
Heap profiling, in particular, is the best way to ensure no unnecessary memory use.
Purity
Reduce complexity dramatically by removing state. Purely functional code scales, because it is compositional. All you need is the type to determine how to use some code -- it won't mysteriously break when you change some other part of the program.
Use lots of "model/view/controller" style programming: parse external data as soon as possible into purely functional data structures, operate on those structures, then once all work is done, render/flush/serialize out. Keeps most of your code pure
Testing
QuickCheck + Haskell Code Coverage, to ensure you are testing the things you can't check with types.
GHC + RTS is great for seeing if you're spending too much time doing GC.
QuickCheck can also help you identify clean, orthogonal APIs for your modules. If the properties of your code are difficult to state, they're probably too complex. Keep refactoring until you have a clean set of properties that can test your code, that compose well. Then the code is probably well designed too.
Monads for Structuring
Monads capture key architectural designs in types (this code accesses hardware, this code is a single-user session, etc.)
E.g. the X monad in xmonad, captures precisely the design for what state is visible to what components of the system.
Type classes and existential types
Use type classes to provide abstraction: hide implementations behind polymorphic interfaces.
Concurrency and parallelism
Sneak par into your program to beat the competition with easy, composable parallelism.
Refactor
You can refactor in Haskell a lot. The types ensure your large scale changes will be safe, if you're using types wisely. This will help your codebase scale. Make sure that your refactorings will cause type errors until complete.
Use the FFI wisely
The FFI makes it easier to play with foreign code, but that foreign code can be dangerous.
Be very careful in assumptions about the shape of data returned.
Meta programming
A bit of Template Haskell or generics can remove boilerplate.
Packaging and distribution
Use Cabal. Don't roll your own build system. (EDIT: Actually you probably want to use Stack now for getting started.).
Use Haddock for good API docs
Tools like graphmod can show your module structures.
Rely on the Haskell Platform versions of libraries and tools, if at all possible. It is a stable base. (EDIT: Again, these days you likely want to use Stack for getting a stable base up and running.)
Warnings
Use -Wall to keep your code clean of smells. You might also look at Agda, Isabelle or Catch for more assurance. For lint-like checking, see the great hlint, which will suggest improvements.
With all these tools you can keep a handle on complexity, removing as many interactions between components as possible. Ideally, you have a very large base of pure code, which is really easy to maintain, since it is compositional. That's not always possible, but it is worth aiming for.
In general: decompose the logical units of your system into the smallest referentially transparent components possible, then implement them in modules. Global or local environments for sets of components (or inside components) might be mapped to monads. Use algebraic data types to describe core data structures. Share those definitions widely.
Don gave you most of the details above, but here's my two cents from doing really nitty-gritty stateful programs like system daemons in Haskell.
In the end, you live in a monad transformer stack. At the bottom is IO. Above that, every major module (in the abstract sense, not the module-in-a-file sense) maps its necessary state into a layer in that stack. So if you have your database connection code hidden in a module, you write it all to be over a type MonadReader Connection m => ... -> m ... and then your database functions can always get their connection without functions from other modules having to be aware of its existence. You might end up with one layer carrying your database connection, another your configuration, a third your various semaphores and mvars for the resolution of parallelism and synchronization, another your log file handles, etc.
Figure out your error handling first. The greatest weakness at the moment for Haskell in larger systems is the plethora of error handling methods, including lousy ones like Maybe (which is wrong because you can't return any information on what went wrong; always use Either instead of Maybe unless you really just mean missing values). Figure out how you're going to do it first, and set up adapters from the various error handling mechanisms your libraries and other code uses into your final one. This will save you a world of grief later.
Addendum (extracted from comments; thanks to Lii & liminalisht) —
more discussion about different ways to slice a large program into monads in a stack:
Ben Kolera gives a great practical intro to this topic, and Brian Hurt discusses solutions to the problem of lifting monadic actions into your custom monad. George Wilson shows how to use mtl to write code that works with any monad that implements the required typeclasses, rather than your custom monad kind. Carlo Hamalainen has written some short, useful notes summarizing George's talk.
Designing large programs in Haskell is not that different from doing it in other languages.
Programming in the large is about breaking your problem into manageable pieces, and how to fit those together; the implementation language is less important.
That said, in a large design it's nice to try and leverage the type system to make sure you can only fit your pieces together in a way that is correct. This might involve newtype or phantom types to make things that appear to have the same type be different.
When it comes to refactoring the code as you go along, purity is a great boon, so try to keep as much of the code as possible pure. Pure code is easy to refactor, because it has no hidden interaction with other parts of your program.
I did learn structured functional programming the first time with this book.
It may not be exactly what you are looking for, but for beginners in functional programming, this may be one of the best first steps to learn to structure functional programs - independant of the scale. On all abstraction levels, the design should always have clearly arranged structures.
The Craft of Functional Programming
http://www.cs.kent.ac.uk/people/staff/sjt/craft2e/
I'm currently writing a book with the title "Functional Design and Architecture". It provides you with a complete set of techniques how to build a big application using pure functional approach. It describes many functional patterns and ideas while building an SCADA-like application 'Andromeda' for controlling spaceships from scratch. My primary language is Haskell. The book covers:
Approaches to architecture modelling using diagrams;
Requirements analysis;
Embedded DSL domain modelling;
External DSL design and implementation;
Monads as subsystems with effects;
Free monads as functional interfaces;
Arrowised eDSLs;
Inversion of Control using Free monadic eDSLs;
Software Transactional Memory;
Lenses;
State, Reader, Writer, RWS, ST monads;
Impure state: IORef, MVar, STM;
Multithreading and concurrent domain modelling;
GUI;
Applicability of mainstream techniques and approaches such as UML, SOLID, GRASP;
Interaction with impure subsystems.
You may get familiar with the code for the book here, and the 'Andromeda' project code.
I expect to finish this book at the end of 2017. Until that happens, you may read my article "Design and Architecture in Functional Programming" (Rus) here.
UPDATE
I shared my book online (first 5 chapters). See post on Reddit
Gabriel's blog post Scalable program architectures might be worth a mention.
Haskell design patterns differ from mainstream design patterns in one
important way:
Conventional architecture: Combine a several components together of
type A to generate a "network" or "topology" of type B
Haskell architecture: Combine several components together of type A to
generate a new component of the same type A, indistinguishable in
character from its substituent parts
It often strikes me that an apparently elegant architecture often tends to fall out of libraries that exhibit this nice sense of homogeneity, in a bottom-up sort of way. In Haskell this is especially apparent - patterns that would traditionally be considered "top-down architecture" tend to be captured in libraries like mvc, Netwire and Cloud Haskell. That is to say, I hope this answer will not be interpreted as an attempt replace any of the others in this thread, just that structural choices can and should ideally be abstracted away in libraries by domain experts. The real difficulty in building large systems, in my opinion, is evaluating these libraries on their architectural "goodness" versus all of your pragmatic concerns.
As liminalisht mentions in the comments, The category design pattern is another post by Gabriel on the topic, in a similar vein.
I have found the paper "Teaching Software Architecture Using Haskell" (pdf) by Alejandro Serrano useful for thinking about large-scale structure in Haskell.
Perhaps you have to go an step back and think of how to translate the description of the problem to a design in the first place. Since Haskell is so high level, it can capture the description of the problem in the form of data structures , the actions as procedures and the pure transformation as functions. Then you have a design. The development start when you compile this code and find concrete errors about missing fields, missing instances and missing monadic transformers in your code, because for example you perform a database Access from a library that need a certain state monad within an IO procedure. And voila, there is the program. The compiler feed your mental sketches and gives coherence to the design and the development.
In such a way you benefit from the help of Haskell since the beginning, and the coding is natural. I would not care to do something "functional" or "pure" or enough general if what you have in mind is a concrete ordinary problem. I think that over-engineering is the most dangerous thing in IT. Things are different when the problem is to create a library that abstract a set of related problems.
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Have you actually "tried" (means programmed in, not just read an article on it) Erlang and decided against it for a project? If so, why? Also, if you have opted to go back to your old language, or to use another functional language like F#, Haskell, Clojure, Scala, or something else then this counts too, and state why.
I returned to Haskell for my personal projects from Erlang for the simple virtue of Haskell's amazing type system. Erlang gives you a ton of tools to handle when things go wrong. Haskell gives you tools to keep you from going wrong in the first place.
When working in a language with a strong type system you are effectively proving free theorems about your code every time you compile.
You also get a bunch of overloading sugar from Haskell's typeclass machinery, but that is largely secondary to me -- even if it does allow me to express a number of abstractions that would be terribly verbose or non-idiomatic and unusable in Erlang (e.g. Haskell's category-extras).
I love Erlang, I love its channels and its effortless scalability. I turn to it when these are the things I need. Haskell isn't a panacea. I give up a better operational understanding of space consumption. I give up the magical one pass garbage collector. I give up OTP patterns and all that effortless scalability.
But its hard for me to give up the security blanket that, as is commonly said, in Haskell, if it typechecks, it is probably correct.
We use Haskell, OCaml and (now) F# so for us it has nothing to do with lack of C-like syntax. Rather we skip Erlang because:
It's dynamically typed (we're fans of Haskell's type system)
Doesn't provide a 'real' string type (I understand why, but it's annoying that this hasn't been corrected at the language level yet)
Tends to have poor (incomplete or unmaintained) database drivers
It isn't batteries included and doesn't appear to have a community working on correcting this. If it does, it isn't highly visible. Haskell at least has Hackage, and I'd guess that's what has us choosing that language over any other. In Windows environments F# is about to have the ultimate advantage here.
There are probably other reasons I can't think of right now, but these are the major points.
The best reason to avoid Erlang is when you cannot commit to the functional way of programming.
I read an anti-Erlang blog rant a few weeks ago, and one of the author's criticisms of Erlang is that he couldn't figure out how to make a function return a different value each time he called it with the same arguments. What he really hadn't figured out is that Erlang is that way on purpose. That's how Erlang manages to run so well on multiple processors without explicit locking. Purely functional programming is side-effect-free programming. You can arm-twist Erlang into working like our ranting blogger wanted, adding side effects, but in doing so you throw away the value Erlang offers.
Pure functional programming is not the only right way to program. Not everything needs to be mathematically rigorous. If you determine your application would be best written in a language that misuses the term "function", better cross Erlang off your list.
I have used Erlang in a few project already. I often use it for restful services. Where I don't use it however is for complex front end web applications where tools like Ruby on Rails are far better. But for the powerbroker behind the scenes I know of no better tool than Erlang.
I also use a few applications written in Erlang. I use CouchDB and RabbitMQ a bit and I have set up a few EJabberd servers. These applications are the most powerful, easiest and flexible tools in their field.
Not wanting to use Erlang because it does not use JVM is in my mind pretty silly. JVM is not some magical tool that is the best in doing everything in the world. In my mind the ability to choose from an arsenal of different tools and not being stuck in a single language or framework is what separates experts from code monkeys.
PS: After reading my comment back in context I noticed it looked like I was calling oxbow_lakes a code monkey. I really wasn't and apologize if he took it like that. I was generalizing about types of programmers and I would never call an individual such a negative name based on one comment by him. He is probably a good programmer even though I encourage him to not make the JVM some sort of a deal breaker.
Whilst I haven't, others on the internet have, e.g.
We investigated the relative merits of
C++ and Erlang in the implementation
of a parallel acoustic ray tracing
algorithm for the U.S. Navy. We found
a much smaller learning curve and
better debugging environment for
parallel Erlang than for
pthreads-based C++ programming. Our
C++ implementation outperformed the
Erlang program by at least 12x.
Attempts to use Erlang on the IBM Cell
BE microprocessor were frustrated by
Erlang's memory footprint. (Source)
And something closer to my heart, which I remember reading back in the aftermath of the ICFP contest:
The coding was very straightforward,
translating pseudocode into C++. I
could have used Java or C#, but I'm at
the point where programming at a high
level in C++ is just as easy, and I
wanted to retain the option of quickly
dropping down into some low-level
bit-twiddling if it came down to it.
Erlang is my other favorite language
for hacking around in, but was worried
about running into some performance
problem that I couldn't extricate
myself from. (Source)
For me, the fact that Erlang is dynamically typed is something that makes me wary. Although I do use dynamically typed languages because some of them are just so very problem-oriented (take Python, I solve a lot of problems with it), I wish they were statically typed instead.
That said, I actually intended to give Erlang a try for some time, and I’ve just started downloading the source. So your “question” achieved something after all. ;-)
I know Erlang since university, but have never used it in my own projects so far. Mainly because I'm mostly developing desktop applications, and Erlang is not a good language for making nice GUIs. But I will soon implement a server application, and I will give Erlang a try, because that's what it's good for. But I'm worring that I need more librarys, so maybe I'll try with Java instead.
A number of reasons:
Because it looks alien from anyone used to the C family of languages
Because I wanted to be able to run on the Java Virtual Machine to take advantage of tools I knew and understood (like JConsole) and the years of effort which have gone into JIT and GC.
Because I didn't want to have to rewrite all the (Java) libraries I've built up over the years.
Because I have no idea about the Erlang "ecosystem" (database access, configuration, build etc).
Basically I am familiar with Java, its platform and ecosystem and I have invested much effort into building stuff which runs on the JVM. It was easier by far to move to scala
I Decided against using Erlang for my project that was going to be run with a lot of shared data on a single multi-processor system and went with Clojure becuase Clojure really gets shared-memory-concurrency. When I have worked on distributed data storage systems Erlang was a great fit because Erlang really shines at distributed message passing systems. I compare the project to the best feature in the language and choose accordingly
Used it for a message gateway for a proprietary, multi-layered, binary protocol. OTP patterns for servers and relationships between services as well as binary pattern matching made the development process very easy. For such a use case I'd probably favor Erlang over other languages again.
The JVM is not a tool, it is a platform. Although I am all in favour of choosing the best tool for the job the platform is mostly already determined. Unless I am developing something standalone, from scratch and without the desire to reuse any existing code/library (three aspects that are unlikely in isolation already) I may be free to choose the platform.
I do use multiple tools and languages but I mainly targetg the JVM platform. That precludes Erlang for most if not all of my projects, as interesting as some of it concepts are.
Silvio
While I liked many design aspects of the Erlang runtime and the OTP platform, I found it to be a pretty annoying program language to develop in. The commas and periods are totally lame, and often require re-writing the last character of many lines of code just to change one line. Also, some operations that are simple in Ruby or Clojure are tedious in Erlang, for example string handling.
For distributed systems relying on a shared database the Mnesia system is really powerful and probably a good option, but I program in a language to learn and to have fun, and Erlang's annoying factor started to outweigh the fun factor once I had gotten past the basic bank account tutorials and started writing plugins for an XMPP server.
I love Erlang from the concurrency standpoint. Erlang really did concurrency right. I didn't end up using erlang primarily because of syntax.
I'm not a functional programmer by trade. I generally use C++, so I'm covet my ability to switch between styles (OOP, imperative, meta, etc). It felt like Erlang was forcing me to worship the sacred cow of immutable-data.
I love it's approach to concurrency, simple, beautiful, scalable, powerful. But the whole time I was programming in Erlang I kept thinking, man I'd much prefer a subset of Java that disallowed data sharing between thread and used Erlangs concurrency model. I though Java would have the best bet of restricting the language the feature set compatible with Erlang's processes and channels.
Just recently I found that the D Programing language offers Erlang style concurrency with familiar c style syntax and multi-paradigm language. I haven't tried anything massively concurrent with D yet, so I can't say if it's a perfect translation.
So professionally I use C++ but do my best to model massively concurrent applications as I would in Erlang. At some point I'd like to give D's concurrency tools a real test drive.
I am not going to even look at Erlang.
Two blog posts nailed it for me:
Erlang machinery walks the whole list to figure out whether they have a message to process, and the only way to get message means walking the whole list (I suspect that filtering messages by pid also involves walking the whole message list)
http://www.lshift.net/blog/2010/02/28/memory-matters-even-in-erlang
There are no miracles, indeed, Erlang does not provide too many services to deal with unavoidable overloads - e.g. it is still left to the application programmer to deal checking for available space in the message queue (supposedly by walking the queue to figure out the current length and I suppose there are no built-in mechanisms to ensure some fairness between senders).
erlang - how to limit message queue or emulate it?
Both (1) and (2) are way below naive on my book, and I am sure there are more software "gems" of similar nature sitting inside Erlang machinery.
So, no Erlang for me.
It seems that once you have to deal with a large system that requires high performance under overload C++ + Boost is still the only game in town.
I am going to look at D next.
I wanted to use Erlang for a project, because of it's amazing scalability with number of CPU'S. (We use other languages and occasionally hit the wall, leaving us with having to tweak the app)
The problem was that we must deliver our application on several platforms: Linux, Solaris and AIX, and unfortunately there is no Erlang install for AIX at the moment.
Being a small operation precludes the effort in porting and maintaining an AIX version of Erlang, and asking our customers to use Linux for part of our application is a no go.
I am still hoping that an AIX Erlang will arrive so we can use it.
Me and my friend are in the first stages of creating a domain-specific language designed for game programming, for his thesis paper.
The language will be fairly low-level, it will have a C-like syntax, optional garbage collection, and will be geared towards systems that have little memory or processing power (ie. Nintendo DS), but should be powerful enough to facilitate PC development easily.
It won't be a scripting language, but a compiled one, but as we don't want to spend months writing a normal compiler, the first implementation will basically be a LanguageName-to-C translator, with TCC or GCC as the end compiler.
Now, I have a question for all you game programmers out there:
What would you like to see in such a language? What features, implementation- and syntax-wise, would be best for it? What to avoid?
Edit:
Some things we already thought up:
state-based objects - an object can exist in one of it's states (or sub-states)
events and functions - events don't have to exist to be called, and can bubble up
limited dynamic allocation and pointer support - we want it to be as safe as possible
support for object compositing (Hero is composed (dynamically) of Actor, Hurtable, Steerable, etc.)
"resources" in states, loaded and unloaded automatically at beginning/end of state (for example, an OpenGL texture object is a resource)
basic support for localization and serialization
a syntax that is quickly parsable
we want to make the language as consistent as possible: everything is passed as value, every declaration has predictable syntax (eg. function retType name(type arg) is (qualifier, list) { }; no const, static, public qualifiers anywhere except in the qualifier list), etc.
Something to make concurrent programming easier. A blend of Erlang and C++ perhaps. I've been thinking about this on and off ever since the Cell processor was announced but it would take a serious chunk of R&D time to develop it and solve many of the problems that already have solutions in traditional C++ programs.
Personally I enjoy writing games that are able to access the wide, wide audience of the web. Would be beyond interesting to make it simple to interface between the desktop and the web.
That is probably more the domain of apps built with the language than the language itself, I suppose, but perhaps something that's useful to keep in mind during the design phase.
You could do worse than to read this: The Next Mainstream Programming Languages: A Game Developer's Perspective (PDF).
So, I don't want to really bust your bubble, but... maybe I should? As a professional game developer, I have to say that there really need to be three types of "languages" for game development.
First, there's your engine-level language. This is typically C++. It's all about performance. The artifacts of gameplay are not meant to be implemented here (sadly, they often are).
Next comes the gameplay language. This is lightweight, easy to understand, and designed for rapid iteration.
Finally, there is some sort of visual scripting language. This is the lightest of all and is geared toward non-programmers (level designers, etc.).
That being said:
Definitely check out UnrealScript. It's used throughout the industry (since the Unreal Engine is a cornerstone of FPS game development).
I would highly recommend supporting:
Concurrent programming (check out what CCP does with Stackless Python for Eve Online)
Network replication (check out UnrealScript, you can tag functions to run on either the server or the client, or to be safe to run on the client, etc.)
State (as mentioned) would be great. UnrealScript has this facility. This needs to be safely done (i.e., enter and exit at any point, complex transitions handled elegantly, etc.)
Good luck!