My main question is whether it makes sense to begin with node.js as a complete server-side newb. Is JS/node.js a good choice to start server-side web-programming from scratch?
I do lots of frontend work, namely HTML, CSS and basic JS. I even wanted to start with Rails but always had the feeling that not knowing what is going on behind the curtains makes me completely uncertain about the framework - it was just too much "convention over configuration".
My hope is to learn JS in general and dive into node.js right after that. I don't know, however, if this is a good approach for a person without any server-side experience. When looking at existing node.js topics and discussions, the used terminology seems to require lots of knowledge about how servers work in general.
Have no fear. Programming is all about practice and you will do mistake while writing code. But, that is how we all have learnt. Whether it is Ruby, Javascript (via Node.js), or any other language: certain aspects of programming are common and you will get familiar with things specific to that particular language over time. Being not able to remember a syntax or convention is OK. Just have reference material on your side. In fact it is encouraged to tinker and experience "let's see what happens ?" moments. This is how you learn, IMHO.
Node.js is indeed a great choice to start learning server side web development. No doubt about that. You don't have to learn Javascript first and then start learning node. Here you can find all the resources you may want. Also, have a look at this How do I get started with Node.js
Here is what I would recommend as your learning path. This is not even node.js 101. But, it will be a great start.
Hello World on console. Dead simple and lot of fun
Math Addition. ( Nothing to do with server development, can skip, but good if you learn it ! )
Addition of hard coded inputs.
Addition where function add(a,b) is written in another .js file. Boy, now you are creating libraries !
Math addition where input is provided using command line. TIP: Use https://github.com/substack/node-optimist
Hello World on web page.
Hello World for web but without express.js to start with. Here is the code - http://nodejs.org/
Hello World for web with http://expressjs.com/.
Adding some dynamism to the response. e.g Saying what time of day it is.
Responding based on the URL paths and query string.
Serving static files such as images and css.
After completing this many tasks you will be good enough to decide what next you want to do.
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I am programming since quite some years now.
Until now I was mainly focused on writing "normal" applications which run inside a console or with a GUI, sometimes also applications which interact with hardware components such as sensors / actors / ...
During this time I got to know a lot of cool programming principles and tools such as object orientation, modularization, unit-testing, test-driven-development, desing-patterns, code-analysis, ..
Also I have some first experience with hosting a wordpress blog, running static web-sites on a nginx webserver, and writing some small php-forms. But I feel like there is still too much magic in all these web-development topics. And I would like to fill this gap and learn a bit more about all these connected scripting / programming languages and technologies. (Because I hate, when I don't understand how things are working :D :D )
I started with some online "Web-development bootcamp" course at udemy to get a rough overview. This took quite some days now and I think HTML, CSS and Javascript for DOM manipulation / animations are clear to me now. Also I heard a lot about NodeJS and all it's derivate languages and databases like Mongo-DB. But still I feel like there is a lot of things unclear to me.
To get to a better understanding I wanted to development some small web-application. Nothing very special, just some website where you have to login to, are able to generate some data and this data is then persisted into a database and once you login again you are able to see the data again.
I first started with developing some classes in Javascript to represent the data in the browser while you are logged in. But I very soon realized that the Javascript which can run inside the browser is very limited and already for unit-testing and modularization into separate files that include each other I actually needed to do some crazy work-arounds or use other server-side languages like nodejs / php / ... .
After some time coding I decided to take one step back, trying to understand the basic design patterns of web-applications and not running for a long time into the wrong direction.
My questions are:
Is there some typical way to go / best practice while developing web-applications?
What are the typical key players? I know there is the difference between front-end, back-end and databases.
But are there some do's and don't's that good WebDev's follow?
For example:
which code is usually written in back-end / server-side languages?
What is usually done in the front-end? (Only desing and animations?)
Do I have to move all business logic into the back-end, also for security reasons or is this maybe also a bad idea because of peformance reasons?
What programming languages are more or less dead and not to be used in the future?
What things are typically reused from frameworks, for example authentication and session handling?
Also I felt like some things I know from other programming languages are not so easy in languages like javascript / nodejs. I am willing to spend time and effort into learning all these things but I would also like to keep the quality standards that I know from C++ /
Python. On the other side I also wondered if these patterns that I have in my head are maybe just boundaries that are completely useless in modern web-development? (e.g. typing, object orientation, modularization / splitting the code to be very reusable )
What do you think am I on the wrong track here, or do I maybe simply use the wrong languages?
I hope the long text is not knocking everyone down / keeping everyone from answering me :o
I would really appreciate your help and guidance to understand everything a bit better and to not repeat the things already a lot of others have done wrong ;)
BR, mezorian
First off, most of the questions are very opionated (at least the answers are) and your question will probably be closed for that reason. So I will post my answer before completing it and expand on it after.
First off a good roadmap to become a web developer. I like it mainly because it shows the crazyness the web development world has come to (don't be shocked!): https://levelup.gitconnected.com/the-2020-web-developer-roadmap-76503ddfb327
Trying to answer some of your question (answers are my opinion):
Is there some typical way to go / best practice while developing web-applications?
I'm tempted to say there are as many ways to do web development as there are web-developers in the world, but that might be a bit exaggerated. If you want some guidelines, I'd pick one of the major web frameworks and learn the way they do web development. With web frameworks I mean all kinds of frameworks starting with JS-frameworks all the way to static site generators, etc. They all have their ecosystem and their own rules.
What are the typical key players? I know there is the difference between front-end, back-end and databases.
(personal opinion) I work with Go in the backend. I love it because it brings back some simplicity in the crazy world of choices being a web developer. Since you know C, Go will probably be easy for you. It has static typing, structs, etc, but no need to manually manage your memory. It is also much faster than most other backend languages used in web development (Python, NodeJS, PHP, Ruby, etc).
In the front-end I have used native JS, jQuery, React, Vue, etc. I'm still waiting for something that makes things easy again. Flutter seems to be something that has a good approach, but is not really a web front framework (yet). (Don't do public websites with Flutter! They are not indexable.) We'll see where it goes.
Databases I will not go into here as that is another huge topic. Let's just say that I'm more a fan of using multiple databases for their specific strengths rather than a big one that is supposed to be good at anything.
which code is usually written in back-end / server-side languages?
Even this depends largely on your choices (framework and preference). One thing for sure has to be in the backend and that is security related stuff. Anything you put in frontend code is visible to an experienced user.
Apart from that there are some ecosystems where you don't write any backend code but talk to a (cloud) service that is basically like a database with a web endpoint on top with secured login. (for example https://firebase.google.com/.) Here the security related stuff is baked into the service.
If you do both, keeping business logic in the backend is probably a good idea. If the frontend calculates something (for quick response), the backend should double check that (e.g. calculating the total in a cart). But this is too general. There can always be use cases where some business logic needs to be implemented in the front-end.
Do I have to move all business logic into the back-end, also for security reasons or is this maybe also a bad idea because of performance reasons?
Performance can be a problem, but mostly because the roundtrip time to the server and back. If you do that for every tiny information, the UI will become sluggish. You might want to think about doing e.g. a calculation client-side.
JS-Frameworks like React, Vue don't request html from the backend, but data and build the html based on that data client-side. I'd use them if I have a very data driven website / webapp, especially if it is user-dependent. Transferring only the data and building the html for every site from it in the browser based on user settings and data, saves a lot of roundtrips.
If you are worried about server performance: For the server to hit its limit, you'd need heavy usage of your website for that to become an issue (at least with Go). If you get there you can still use horizontal scaling (multiple instances of you server) to solve that. Unless you are working for a large company with millions of users daily, I'd not worry about scaling for now.
What programming languages are more or less dead and not to be used in the future?
Warning: Very opionated!
I'd say PHP is dead. Many headhunters I've spoken with agree with me. Companies are desperately looking for PHP developers, because many developers are moving on from PHP to something "cooler". You'll definitely find a job with PHP, but might not be so happy with your job. For me it is also a sign of how modern a company really is (if PHP is not it's main backend language (any more)).
Python currently has a big boom. Mostly because of AI development. I'm not sure if that boom is also in the web development, but I'd say not. I used Python before Go (5+ years ago) and before that PHP (8+ years ago). I rarely get Python web developer job offers (at least compared to PHP and Go).
Go is the language of the cloud. It is perfect for concurrent programming which is an essential part in web development (every http call should be handled concurrently). It is fast and light weight and doesn't need anything installed on the server to run (compiles to a single binary without dependencies).
NodeJS: Haven't used. I'm not a fan of Javascript (but it was (and kind of still is) the only option in the browser), so I never liked the idea of using it also in the backend.
TypeScript: might be an alternative to JavaScript (thinking of frontend here) if you like a more structured language.
It sounded like you want to build a user baser web app with data being managed by each user. This is what I would (probably) do in that case:
Backend in Go
Go serves static files (start html, css, js, images, etc.)
Go server has an api endpoint that serves data (e.g. REST style)
Vue (or React) in the frontend
Vue requests data from the api to build the user-specific content
I wanted to know if anyone has been using AirBnB Rendr and is it stable and ok to use in commercial projects or is it still changing a lot?
I'm developing a website which can run both client and server based, this mean I need to be able to render pages and widgets server and client based.
The server is running Node.js, dust.js and has custom server based code to render the pages and widgets on the server side. I need to pick how to handle it on the client side.
Naturally I want to try and not repeat code, but obviously the client is different I can:
Keep my current page based server rendering and develop custom
client side code.
Use backbone.js on client side and keep my server based code the
same.
Use AirBnB rendr that is based on Node.js and backbone to use the
same code on client and o server. AirBnB Rendr Library
I like the 3rd idea very much, but I'm looking for some input from you guys.
Has anyone used it? any experience with it in terms of stability and/or how often their api changes etc?
I've just started playing around with Rendr. If I ignore the learning curve and oboarding friction, I like it a lot and I plan to write my next large production app using Rendr.
Unfortunately, as bababa listed above, the documentation needs a lot of work. There is an explanation of how Rendr works in its README and the example app's README but beyond that you'll need to source dive in order to figure out how the gears are turning. Currently, there is no forum for questions (other than stack overflow :D) and I've had a hard time figuring out its idioms on my own.
Despite all the struggles, I finally see the light and I'm starting to understand why Rendr is so powerful.
tl;dr - If you're willing to source dive and figure out your own workflow, I would suggest using Rendr. Otherwise, I would recommend going old school by writing a traditional client app with a more mature library. (is it too early to say that? =X)
Well given AirBnb is a successful commercial enterprise, there's some validation that the library works well enough for them. This question is probably best answered by watching their github commit log for breaking changes. Given backbone is 1.0 and essentially stable at this point, rendr will probably quickly stabilize, but honestly your fear of instability is probably unjustified. I think rendr looks compelling and although my current project is using a very similar home-grown solution, I would consider using rendr in a future project or even porting our code to rendr. "Stability" per say is much less important to the web development community compared to other situations like packaged or embedded software.
I used (tried to use) and Rendr on a project and gave up. There are just to many limitations (currently) and the lack of documentation doesn't help. I ended up need to rewrite the source code to accomplish some things I would consider trivial with other frameworks, such as passing multiple collections to a view. It just wasn't possible (at the time I used it) and that was a deal breaker. Not being able to pass a collection of categories and results to a page was to much of a limitation.
I have no doubt it will eventually be ready for production use, but right now I would say unless you are an engineer at AirBnb and know how to hack the source then no, it's not ready.
If you really want to know if it will work for your needs, take a look at the issue list on github. That will give you a good idea where the projects at.
We are considering node.js for our next server side application. But we don't want our client to be able to look into our application's code. Can we deploy application written in node.js in compiled form? If yes, then how?
Maybe you could obfuscate all your code... I know this is not like compiling, but at least, it will avoid the 99% of the clients of looking at the code :D
Here is another topic: How can I obfuscate (protect) JavaScript?
good luck
But we don't want our client to be able to look into our application's code.
If you are shipping code to your client, they will be able to "look into your application's code". Technically, the process of "running your code" is "looking into your application's code".
Having a fully compiled version of your code can definitely feel "more safe", but they still have a copy of the code in some usable form. They can still reverse engineer pieces or do other things. This stuff really comes down to the license.
Here's a related answer. His quote is:
Write a license and get a lawyer to go after violators
Otherwise, you should host the stuff yourself and allow for public access.
Any form of obfuscation, minification, compilation is just going to be a speed bump on the way to "stealing your code". It's probably much better to simply have legal recourse.
I don't believe this is possible. I mean, technically I guess you could write everything as native C++ extensions, but that would defeat the purpose of using node.
As mentioned before, there is no true compilation in Node.js because the nod executable basically compiles javascript code on the fly.
A lot of developers use Google's Closure Compiler which really just "minify" -- removes comments, whitespaces, etc. -- and "optimize" -- converts javascript code to more efficient javascript. However, the resultant code is generally still parsable javascript code (albeit rather hard to read!). Check out this related stream for more info: Getting closure-compiler and Node.js to play nice
A couple of options that might be helpful:
Develop a custom module for "proprietary" business logic and host it on your secure servers
Wrap "proprietary" business logic into a java class or executable that is called as an external process in Node.js
Code "proprietary" business logic as compiled web services available on a separate application server that is called by Node.js.
It's up to you to define what part of your application should be considered "proprietary", but as a general rule I would not classify HTML and related javascript -- sent to the we browser -- as "proprietary". My advice is to be judicious here.
Lastly, I found the following stream with an interesting approach that might be helpful, but it is rather advanced and likely to be rather buggy: Secure distribution of NodeJS applications
Hope that helps...
I want to rewrite a complete community website in nodejs,express and
nowjs with mongodb. Its currently in php using the codeigniter
framework. It includes functionality such as your own profile page,
photoalbum, guestbook, internal messages, contacts and more. And im
going to add an im to it and some other things like a forum and so on.
Its a pretty big project.
I have to make a decision about which techniques to use in the
webapplication. So i did a little research and found, node, Expess and
nowjs.
Should i stick to finish the application in php( codeigniter ), mysql
and ajax, or can i do this in express, mongodb and nowjs?
Can anyone recommend this for use on a live production site? And if
so, are there any security issues one should know about? General
guidelines?
Help would be really appreciated so i can make up my mind and finish
the project
Regards
George
The problem with Nodejs being young is not that it's a half baked product or something but infact it's growing very fast and new developments are being done at breath taking place. So you need to keep up with them while developing.
Otherwise there are huge projects out there developed totally with node and express. Take a look at expressjs.com/applications to see what kind of commericial projects are built using it.
As far as security, sessions etc. are concerned. Unlike ASP/PHP , you don't get most of the features out of the box. You'll need to either write them yourselves or using open source frameworks. Both ways you and only you have to ensure that your application has all bases covered. With flexibility, comes complexity.
It should be noted that Nodejs is optimum for real time I/O. If you think this is something which is required at your end then I highly recommend to go for it.
What you describe does sound like a big project.
If you have the time to spare, I would suggest picking a small portion of it that deals with managing secure sessions (e.g. the profile page). Implement that in Express to get a sense of how it compares to the existing PHP. If you like it, keep going.
Particularly when security is at stake, always try to use existing components when they are available. Node's minimalism makes it tempting to 'roll your own,' but it's very easy to make a security mistake with anything less than expert knowledge.
I want to go learn web programming,but besides names and a little of html I don't know anything.So I ask you what programming languages you recommend,why,what can be done with it,tools to learn ,etc.I don't know if it matters but I program in a Linux enviroment(Ubuntu).
I don't want to do hardcore web programming ,I only want to be able to develop complete websites and understand network concepts.
Well, most cheap/free web hosts support PHP, MySQL, and most browsers support Javascript.
Target those and you'll be on a reasonably good path.
Some support Ruby and Python, and you might choose that path if you want to learn those languages.
Good luck!
-Adam
Definitely start with HTML, and basic CSS. These are the core of web programming, and you need to understand them well to do anything of consequence.
Once you've got those down, you'll want to move on to a server-side language. The easiest is PHP, but be careful of picking up bad habits, since it's a loose environment; if you stick with PHP, you'll eventually want to use it with an MVC framework such as CodeIgniter, which encourage separating presentation and logic. To get a little more advanced, you can also try Python or Ruby. Get yourself some server space to mess around with; most shared hosting plans are $5-10/month.
For Javascript/AJAX, you'll probably want to start by using Firebug or Firefox's DOM inspector to learn the relationship between the HTML of a page and the DOM object which Javascript uses to interact with it. Once you understand how the DOM works, toy around with jQuery to start doing useful (and fun!) stuff.
You'll also eventually want to learn MySQL (or a similar SQL variant), but that can probably wait, since you can do lots of interesting things without tackling database stuff.
Above all, be patient and persistent, and make use of every resource at your disposal: books, Google, Stack Overflow, and cheat sheets.
Ruby all the way. It's exactly what you need if you're interested in web dev and completely starting from scratch programming-wise. From the basics of Ruby it's pretty easy to get into Rails, which is a very beginner-friendly web framework.
Many great books on Amazon (look for the highest rated of course) on both Ruby and Rails.
Great starting point for links:
http://www.ruby-lang.org/en/documentation/
As well check out Learn to Program
Now get learnin'.
Google App Engine offers free hosting for applications that do not exceed the specified limits. The server-side language is Python, the client-side language is JavaScript inside Django templates. Everything has worked nicely for me in Ubuntu 8.10.
GREAT Question,
a couple of years ago I was in the same place -
What HONESTLY Helped me was using Dreamweaver, I set it in split mode and started watching the code
I used this and started delving into the PHP Application world and could see what was going on (sort of)
I know you can use dreamweaver with wine on the linux, and it can help you do a TON
granted if you continue it has the potential to limit you to the dreamweaver world... but can help you learn and create at the same time
(I build full php apps from scratch now with a notepad... but I started with DW)
The question I'd have is what kind of scale on web programming are you wanting to do? If it is small stuff then the LAMP stack would be my suggestion while if you want to get more into 3-tier architecture then Java or ASP.Net may be worth getting into for middleware or business logic code.
With the exception of the reference to the LAMP stack above, there has been no Perl recommendations. I like Perl as it is easy enough to build a fairly full featured web application (using CGI, or mod_perl). Of course, you are going to have to learn HTML/CSS if you are going to do anything on the web. I feel Perl is a good choice for web development as it is fairly robust and full featured with all of the modules available on CPAN. Combine with an application framework like CGI::Application or Catalyst and you can build sophisticated web apps in a short amount of time. Also, using a tool like XAMPP can help as you won't have to worry about web server or database cofigurations to get started.