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Let's say I want to create FPS game, let's say clone Crysis so everybody understand what type of graphics & performance I'm after. What's the best code to write this game with so it's as easy as possible to port it to all the common platforms? Of course I want the application to feel and be native to the platform. This also means that it should be easy to take advantage of Snow Leopard's new features like OpenCL and Windows 7's new features. I realize that GUI has the written separately for different platforms and that's not a problem.
So my question is that what's the best language for the job. I'm not looking for one-for-all solution but more like language for the core. I guess one way to put it is to say that what's the best language if you need to port the same program to Windows, OS X & Linux? Java is out of the question.
C (and now for some padding to reach 15 chars)
Have you ever seen the Blues Brothers? In the movie, Jake and Elwood go into a hick bar to do a gig and ask what sort of music they like, to which the woman behind the bar answers:
We have both kinds: country AND
western.
What has this got to do with this question? Well, you want to create high performance 3D graphics and you're asking what language to use?
We have both kinds: C and C++.
You probably want C for your lower level graphics performance, either the variant of C89 that Visual C++ supports, or use MinGW and gcc C99 ( VC++ 2008 doesn't support declarations in for loops in C99 code, which is very annoying, but then they didn't do that right in C++ for years ).
Admittedly, if you're taking GNU with you and running full-screen with your own GUI then it's not really cross platform any more.
You also probably want either Lua or Python or another scripting language which plays well with calling C to give a sensible higher level way of controlling the game.
C++. You can avoid millions of "if #define"'s for platform dependent things and instead use inheritance (derived classes for each platform and client using/knowing the abstract base class). A few exceptions to this can be made for the performance critical parts.
There are also lots of libraries for cross-platform development.
I really recommend using Lua for any scripting. It is an ANSI C library so that means that a: it can be compiled in (at least most) C++ compilers, and: if there's a C compiler for the platform then you can use lua. It allows for significant extension of flexibility of your game and if you want it will let your players customize it too!
Java is probably one of the easiest to learn, personally. Java though doesn't have have that great of a graphical system, it needs more code to support the graphical display if you are coding "GAMES," if you're going to code a website though choose JavaScript, CSS, and HTML/5. Or use only one of these languages normally best to choose two that best fit your comforts... =) For an FPS, I would recommend for beginners to use Java, if you have a good sense in what you want to create and it is a more complex game then use C# or C++, just because it uses less hardware if you want to make more complex games to run on multi platform.
Whatever you use you're going to have to write platform-specific code. Languages like Java or other interpreted languages (Python be my personal preference) are going to allow you to use a lot of commonalities. However, since it's not a quick and simple project, I'd suggest </intelligent-looking-padding> C or C++.
Edit: GUI doesn't necessarily have to be written from scratch for every platform. Check wxWidgets.
Most cross platform games are written in C++, because it is very good - performance wise; and its more user friendly than C. Games need maximum speed & efficiency!
You can hide away platform specific stuff behind certain abstractions and API's that you write so that you can port it easily. You can also use a cross platform framework such as Qt or wxWidgets for the window & GUI elements. Adding a scripting language to non critical parts is also nice. :)
As most have noted here, you are almost certainly going to need C/C++ for your graphics in the end particularly for your high performance (graphics) requirements.
However there might be an opportunity to develop the "core" as you call it, in a scripting language which in turn is easy to embed within a C/C++ application. In which case, the top 2 scripting languages to look into would be Lua and Tcl.
Lua in particular is used in WoW among others I'm sure. Tcl on the other hand has more "batteries included" (libraries).
I'd recommend C++ for large cross-platform projects as well. But I think what's also important are the build-tools you use. For example SCons or CMake can create project files/makefiles for most compilers under Windows/Linux/MacOS.
C is a good language, but generally you want an object oriented language for programming game. If your looking for speed, go with C++, but if you don't have much programming experience, go with python. look into the sfml and pygame libraries.
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Disclaimer: Yes I know this will take 3 years, at least.
I am looking forward to writing a new interpreted programming language. I have a quite solid idea of what I want in terms of dynamicness, syntax, object model, etc, etc.
Now that I have the idea, I have a few questions before I start:
Should I begin writing the full specification and then implement, or write them both all along?
I'm still doubting between C and C++. C++ would allow for more clean design and faster development while C would (maybe) ensure portability to more platforms (microprocessors?). Performance is a must.
Should I try to interest people for the project before the first working prototype so they can cooperate (the end product will be a liberal license anyway), or keep working alone until I have something that runs?
How modular should it be? I am sure that I won't immediately start working on a bytecode interpreter but something easier to implement but slower thing first, so modularity is a must in order to be able to extend later, but I guess overdoing it will hamper performance and clearity.
The answers to your questions depend largely on why you're doing this- the primary reason. Are you trying to create the next Ruby, or is this a learning exercise?
Specification: If this is a personal project, this is not as important. PHP gets a bad rap for having been developed "on the fly," yet many people use it every day. A more complete spec will probably help get people involved if/when you want help.
If you want cross-platform and performance, C is the way to go.
If you want people to join in, prove something first. Write a killer-cool application with your language and blog/talk about why your language is different/special/better.
Modularity of what, the language itself or the compiler? If you want to extend the language, a good spec will help (see #1.) The compiler should be designed with all the best practices in mind, which should help make it extensible.
I hear the Dragon Book is good for learning to develop compilers.
Your specification will be broken unless you write it hand-in-hand with the implementation.
If you think C++ would give you cleaner design and faster development, you should probably use it.
You will have difficulty getting anyone interested in a project unless there is something that runs and demonstrates what is unique about your language.
If you think your language will ever require a byte-code interpreter (and you do say "Performance is a must") you should investigate the capabilities of existing byte-code interpreters before you finalize your language design.
I think you have set yourself too many goals. You say "performance is a must" but in a comment reply you say your goal is "to learn a lot about language design" and that it is "pretty unlikely" that you'll use it in a real project. New programming languages are created to solve problems; more precisely, they're created to help people express solutions to problems in better ways. Designing a language without using it seriously, intensely, continually is like writing software without any test cases: you're likely to wind up with something unusable.
If you want to try your hand at language design, then find a problem---one that you care about---that existing languages won't let you solve the way you want. Then do whatever you can to get a working implementation and start writing and running programs using it. You don't need a hand-crafted JIT compiler with a runtime written in highly bummed assembly code. If you target the JVM or .NET, you get a very high-performance GC, scalable threading system, libraries, and lots of other good stuff for free, even if it interferes with that awesome idea you had for ______.
On the other hand, if you just want to make something run fast, don't try to design a language at the same time. Just find one that you like, learn about implementation strategies, and see if you can do better.
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in which area is c++ mostly used?
I started off with C in school, went to Java and now I primarily use the P's(Php, Perl, Python) so my exposure to the lower level languages have all but disappeared. I would like to get back into it but I can never justify using C over Perl or Python. What real-world apps are being built with these languages? Any suggestions if I want to dive back in, what can I do with C/C++ that I can't easily do with Perl/Python?
To borrow some text from the answer I had for another related question:
Device drivers in native code.
High performance floating point number crunching (i.e. SIMD).
Easy ability to interface with assembly language routines.
Manage memory manually for extended execution runs.
Most of my work has been C and C++. I studied computer engineering in school and worked with embedded devices. My Master's degree had an emphasis in graphics and visualization. One of our visualization apps was written in Python, but for the most part, graphics demands C/C++ for the speed. I now work with embedded devices running Windows Mobile and Windows CE - all C++, though you can do a lot with C#. I previously worked in simulations, which was all C++ code on the backend. C++ is still king for time-sensitive IO, embedded applications, graphics and simulations.
Basically, if you need tight control of timing, you go lower level. Or if you need light-weight (ie, small program size, small memory footprint)
Somewhat unscientifically I took a look on Sourceforge and the top twenty projects/language break-down is currently thus:
Java(43,199)
C++(34,313)
PHP(28,333)
C(26,711)
C#(12,298)
Python(12,222)
JavaScript(10,307)
Perl(8,931)
Unix Shell(3,618)
Delphi/Kylix(3,353)
Visual Basic(3,044)
Visual Basic .NET(2,513)
Assembly(2,283)
JSP(1,891)
Ruby(1,731)
PL/SQL(1,669)
Objective C(1,424)
ASP.NET(1,344)
Tcl(1,241)
ActionScript(1,164)
Perl + Python together still total less than C alone. I have no idea why Java is so high, I know of no single Java developer and have not seen a single Java project, but I am sure someone is using it! For probably the same reason, you are not seeing much C/C++, you are just not working in a domain where it figures highly. I work in embedded systems where C and C++ are ubiquitous and Python comes nowhere. Different languages are encountered to different extents in different worlds.
You ask what you can do with C/C++ that you cannot do easily with Perl/Python; well the answer is plenty, real-time embedded systems for one; but if that is not what you want/need to do, then there is no reason to. On the other hand I might ask the reverse; I'd use C++ for things you might use Python for, simply because for me it would be easier and quicker (than learning a new language and getting the tools working)
C/C++ can be, and is, used for nearly all "types" of programs.
There are some major advantages to C and C++:
Potentially better performance
Easier to build interoperable libraries, especially if working with libraries usable from multiple languages.
well the interpreters for your "P's" languages are most certainly written in c/c++. Most OS code is written in C/C++. On the application side, if you are into games, they are generally written in c/c++. Anything that needs high performance and or low memory is a good candidate.
I've used Gsoap, a c++ soap client implementation for a web service that got HUGE traffic.
Most desktop/console applications with a bias toward graphics rely heavily on C++. This includes CAD software and AAA video games, among other things.
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I've been writing software in Java for many years now, but it was always for internal applications that would be deployed to a server. I'd like to get into writing desktop applications now but I don't know where to start. I've written a few Java/Swing applications but again they were for internal use.
My understanding is that Java and other semi-compiled and interpreted languages are too easy to reverse engineer, making them unsuitable for commercial software. I am aware that there are compilers for Java and some other interpreted language, but I've also heard that they are pricey and/or unreliable.
Assuming I start a microISV and wish to develop and sell applications to a broad audience, what's my best bet? I would prefer something that can be written close to once, and compiled for different operating systems but I am not opposed to .NET and a Windows-only audience if other languages would compromise the experience (installation ease & user experience) in Windows. My only issue there is that I don't have a large starting budget and paying out the wazoo for the required development tools is not really in the cards.
Why would people want to reverse engineer your software? They might pirate it, but you can't prevent pirating no matter what language you use. I doubt you have a top-secret algorithm that you're trying to hide either, in which case reverse-engineering might be an issue.
You should go with whatever you know best, and Java can work just fine.
If you are intent on switching to another language, I recommend taking a look at Qt. Qt is a free and open-source cross-platform toolkit for C++ that allows you to write applications in that will compile and run on Windows, Mac, and Linux with minimal effort. You CAN write commercial software for free with Qt with its LGPL license.
Edit: GCJ compiles Java to native code, but only supports Java 1.4.
Well, if you're trying to be an Independent Service Vendor -- and not a Software Vendor -- then in a sense it doesn't matter if you use a language like Java which can be decompiled. Because you'd be selling yourself as the best person to integrate and customize the software for your clients. The software is the delivery mechanism for the thing that will actually make you the money: you and your skills. Plenty of companies make a profit by giving away their software for free and contracting their services to set it up for their clients. You can mitigate the Java decompiling issue somewhat by using an obfuscator, but it's kind of fighting the wrong battle.
If you intent to make your money selling software and not service, then Java would be a relatively risky route to take.
It all depends on your business plan.
If you are starting a one-man company, then you are selling your personal expertise. So the language you use must be the one (or maybe two) that you are most familiar with and expert in. I'm surprised you felt it necessary to ask this.
Any code can be decompiled to some degree. I think you can obfuscate Java to a degree that will deter the casual user... but I think the other people hit the nail on the head. Of all the reasons not to use Java, the ease of decompiling should be very very low on your list. If that is all that is stopping you, go for it! Google Java obfuscater and you will find something.
I'm skeptical about the risk of reverse engineering a complex piece of software written in Java, but for purposes of your question I'm willing to stipulate it. I assume the same issues rule out any other language that is implemented only on the JVM.
The most salient aspects of Java are
Static type system
Class-based object system
Automatic memory management
No freestanding functions or modules outside the class/interface system
Generics
This combination could be replicated in a language like C#, but I assume the same objections you have about distributing JVM bytecode also apply to MSIL bytecodes.
I'm having a hard time coming up with a language that has all these features. Here are some nearby languages:
C++ has everything except automatic memory management, plus it allows freestanding functions. However the C++ generic mechanism (templates) is not for the faint of heart, and it doesn't (yet) support modular typechecking. Lots more flexibility than Java but also lots more ways to shoot your foot off. Use with caution.
Modula-3 has all of the above but it's essentially a dead language, plus like C++ there's no modular type checking for the generics.
I'm not familiar enough with Eiffel to be able to make good comparisons, but I think it's worth looking into.
Delphi may also be worth looking into. It seems to have everything above except generics. It's primarily a proprietary Windows environment (formerly known as Object Pascal), but there seems to exist an open-source 'Free Pascal' compiler that supports Delphi.
There are many object-oriented languages with automatic memory management and dynamic typing, among which one might highlight ruby, Python, and Smalltalk. None of these really compiles well and reliably to standalone native machine code, although all push toward some form of experimental compilation. And they are all dynamically typed, which is quite different from what you're used to.
If I were in your position I would probably go ahead an use Java and accept some risk of reverse engineering. Decompilers aren't as wonderful as you might think, and they don't produce wildly maintainable code, either. But if you really want to be able to produce native machine code, I would investigate Delphi and Eiffel. (I myself would use Modula-3, but that's because I once invested substantial effort in learning it. It's a very well designed language for its niche, but the user community is about gone and I think it's a dead letter. Pity.)
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I've been thinking of making a desktop program but I have no experience in that. I've been programming in PHP, ASP and JavaScript before. Java seems to be nice since you can run it on all OS. But what I really want is result, I do not really care what language makes me a good programmer (I'll take that later in college :P). I've tried both C# and Python before but it was only console applications.
So, what programming language do you recommend to me?
If you want Windows results, C#. If you want cross-platform results, Python.
You could also just pick randomly. Or you could try them all. Or look at the 16 trillion previous questions on this exact same topic.
UPDATE:
To find those questions, I mentioned, try some Google fun:
"what language" OR "which language" learn site:stackoverflow.com
My personal bias would be towards learning functional programming (Scala or even lisp would be nice). But, honestly, any language could improve your skills pretty dramatically at this point. Just take a look at a few of the mainstream ones, and pick the one that suits your interest the best.
For some ideas (not in any particular order):
C - Learning the low-level details of memory allocation can be useful background. If you use Linux, there's tons of sample code in Gnome apps to show you how to write reasonably elegant code in the language.
C++ - C on steroids... there's lots of complexity here if you want to learn it, but it can also be a great language to have in your arsenal.
C#/Java - Nice, high-level, reasonably portable languages. I prefer the C# language over Java, but there are advantages and disadvantages to each (Java portability is better). In the end its just a matter of preference, and external factors (legacy codebases may swing you one way or the other).
Scala - Java on Steroids - Really nice language, but the learning curve can be a bit steep, IMO.
Python/Ruby/Lisp/etc - Nice scripting languages, most of which are easy to learn, and all of which will lead to new ways of thinking about problems.
Honestly, in the end, the most important rule is just to have fun. Look through the basic "hello world" tutorials and just pick the one that looks the most pleasant. Learning never hurts.
I've found that making desktop applications in C# / VB.NET (I'd strongly recommend the former) can be much easier than other languages, particularly with a good IDE such as Visual Studio (or the free Express editions) or Sharp Develop. It will be much easier to get it going on Windows, of course (I don't know much about Mono + WinForms), but I think the easier transition is worth the tradeoff.
Many people have been suggesting low level languages such as C, C++, but frankly I'm not certain that it would be a worthwhile investment of your time. The first programming language I learned was C, from the K&R book, but if I were to teach my son how to program today I would introduce him to python or ruby.
Both python and ruby are very expressive, sophisticated languages that are easy to learn and have an intuitive, english like syntax. By all means do learn about structured programming, and older compiled languages, but initially you'll reap more benefit from learning OO concepts in a high level language.
Java and C# are excellent languages, however they are very tightly coupled with their frameworks, and you may run the risk of getting bogged down learning a framework instead of programming fundamentals.
If you were comfortable in PHP you will feel right at home with Perl, better yet, pampered. You could even turn around and use Perl on the web with your former languages via CGI.
If GUIs is what you're after, C# is your best bet for Windows and Java for other platforms.
If you want result and GUI and you don't care if it's windows only, you probably want C#.
If you want to run on different platforms, you might check out any language on the JVM since they all have access to a pretty powerful GUI toolkit. (Jython, Groovy, Java, ...)
Don't bother with the desktop just yet. Hit the command line.
Get the K&R book and really learn C. You don't know how much you've missed out on if your background is 100% high-level (PHP, Python, Ruby, JS) web dev.
Learn the fundamentals, then raise the bar by going into C# or Objective C.
You can go easy or go hard, go fast or go slow.
Many people say C#, it's nice and can also be used on Linux through mono. On the other hand you can go with C/C++ and maybe Java. You'll have fun with C/C++, learn something and be a better programmer; but it will take time. Java is simpler but "needy". If you want the easiest way to develop a desktop application, you can go with VB or Delphi. Delphi has some advantages over VB which I'm not going to go into here.
My advice would be, if you have time, are willing, and just want to experience GUI, go from low to high, slow to fast, hard to easy. Try assembler, know C/C++, use Java, crack open C# and browse thought VB and Delphi.
In the end maybe you will not create a powerful application, but you will be prepared for college, be experienced and generally "know stuff".
For someone with HTML and Javascript skills Adobe AIR could be the way to go.
It allows you to create a desktop application using HTML/DHTML or if you are familiar with Flex you can also use Flex.
See http://www.adobe.com/products/air/
Go through K&R C. Learn C and you should have a great foundation for learning other languages.
i would say that Java would give a good introduction to desktop apps. I havent had any experience with some of the other languages mentioned here.
You can do some simple stuff in Java with very little headache, as compared to some other languages that require hundreds of lines of code.
Just depends if you have been exposed to OO programming in your web experience
Consider VB.NET (not "classic" vb!) as an easy-to-start-with high-level language that can help you get your foot in the door; then get up to speed with C# as well. The two are interchangable--VB.NET and C# are really just different dialects of .NET.
There's three things VB.NET has going for it over C# for beginner programmers:
VB.NET tends to be a more descriptive (some would say chatty) language
Where C# uses symbols VB.NET will use (slightly) more descriptive words. After a while VB.NET will probably be chatty to the point it annoys you, but by then you should be quite comfortable with .NET and switching to C# will be fairly trivial
Slightly more relaxed syntax
C# will gripe if you leave off parenthesis on method calls, and gripe if you add them to Property accessors--VB isn't quite as picky. It won't let you go haywire with bad syntax (like HTML) but it won't gripe and complain over every little detail
Better pre-compilation parsing
If you work with Visual Studio in both languages you'll notice it will show most compiler errors and warnings for VB.NET right away. C# will wait until you try to compile to tell you that there's errors in your code. The difference isn't huge (C# will warn you for most errors after a delay) but it can be a concentration buster to think you've just pulled off a method and found out it's 10 errors away from compiling (4 of which are because you left the () off a method call).
Once you learn the main features of .NET it's easy to learn the C# equivalency and transition if you want to; and at some point you might decide that VB.NET is a bit too chatty and opt for C# (pretty much what I did).
The only catch to VB.NET is that you should get in the habit of always adding two lines to the top of your code files; they'll help you out immensely in terms of not letting you do stupid things :)
Option Strict On
Option Explicit On
Here's a real short example of the "words vs. symbols"... you'll see there's not much difference other than some brackets in C# and some extra words describing what's happening in VB.NET
Option Strict On
Option Explicit On
Imports System
Imports System.Windows.Forms
<Serializable> _
Public Class MyClass
Inherits SomeBaseClass
Implements SomeInterface
Public Shared Sub DoSomething()
For each item as Object in SomeCollection
Debug.Writeline(item.ToString)
Next
End Sub
Public Sub SomeInterfaceMethod() Implements SomeInterface.SomeInterfaceMethod
MessageBox.Show("Grrblah!")
End Sub
End Class
using System;
using System.Windows.Forms;
using System.Diagnostics;
[Serializable]
public class MyClass : SomeBaseClass, SomeInterface
{
public static void DoSomething()
{
foreach(Object item in SomeCollection)
{
Debug.WriteLine(item.ToString());
}
}
public void SomeInterfaceMethod()
{
MessageBox.Show(#"Grrblah!");
}
}
Try not to fall in the 'must-be-cross-platform' trap. If you're just beginning, that shouldn't be what's on your mind. I can't speak for everyone, but I myself, and I have seen this happen to others, got caught in this early on and didn't get anywhere because I was always trying to find things that were cross platform, and just because they are cross platform doesn't mean they are the best suited for your situation, especially early on.
When you become proficient at a language, you will know how to port and make things cross platform. Don't choose something solely because it is advertised as being cross platform, despite the fact that most languages today are, don't feel the need to ignore other languages that, while not necessarily platform specific, seem to be better on certain platforms, such as C# for Windows and Objective-C for Mac, which are both great languages in my opinion.
If you want to learn something that benefits you in web development as well as in desktop development, I would go with Ruby. You can look into Ruby on Rails for web development. Ruby is also pretty cross platform and you can develop desktop applications with it. There are also various bindings, so for example you can write Mac apps with it and even have access to .Net with Iron Ruby, if need be.
Python is also a possibility.
I'm looking for a programming language. It should be an easy language to learn, and should have a Garbage Collector. It should be a basic language with features like basic types (integer, boolean), arrays and etc, and I should write the framework.
It is for a game editor I want to write. The editor's designer will write the code of the UI in this programming language. The framework will be a 2D graphics and audio framework, and in the future it'll be 3D too.
I thought about the new Go language, but it doesn't have much support and theres no binding to OpenGL and etc.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
The obvious two are [C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)) or C++. However, [D](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)) is closer to Java and C# given that it has a garbage collector in the standard, as well as an alternative standard library that is fairly closer to Java than the C++ standard library. The downside with D is that they tools are not as mature as C++ or C and the community isn't as large.
The obvious solution though it to look down the list of compiled languages on wikipedia and see which you like the look of.
Well, that's a fairly broad question and without more specific requirements it is difficult to give a focused answer, but it sounds like C (or C++) would fit the bill for you. The languages you described all owe their syntax to C. C will compile to native code. C is basic language in that there is not much to learn beyond the basic syntax and it has all the basic primitives that you require.
Now that you've added the requirement of a garbage collected language, I suppose that you could try Go, but that language is not mature and there's always a risk there.
If you don't want to manage memory all by yourself like C or C++, you can try the new Go language. It compiles to native code (albeit for Linux and MacOSX only for now) and comes with a basic framework that can be easily replaced with your own framework.
It has a very active user base, so IMO it is possible to mature quickly.
You may want to look at Lua.
Lua is a relatively tiny language which manages to be capable and universal with just a few concepts. The BNF specification for the whole language fits easily on one page. It has numbers, booleans, tables and functions, and surprisingly that's all the datatypes it needs. It can even work in an object-oriented fashion.
There's a compiler, Luac, that compiles Lua to bytecode.
Lua is already being used as a UI programming language for games. Addons for World of Warcraft and a few other games are programmed in Lua. I believe Lua is a very good fit for this kind of task.
You want OpenGL? OK... http://luagl.wikidot.com/ is an OpenGL library for Lua.
Since we don't know what you want to do, I don't know what are the chances we success. Therefor, what about a language where you have to set the probability of your statement to fail :
Meet GOTO++.
Don't say "thanks you", it's on me.
Enjoy a challenge?
Try go.
Here's a tech talk by rob pike, and here is a discussion group: http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/topics
.
C++ is Great, it's not scripting lang, so you don't even need a scripting host.