After doing web development for quite a while, I am faced with a new client who wants a simple database application to run outside the interweb.
He is quite adamant about using Microsoft products. "We don't want no steenking open sources" was his stance.
It's been quite a while since I actually did desktop development, and most of my tools are rusty, out of licence, or just plain lost. I have been concentrating lately on L.A.M.P. applications, but that doesn't quite transfer back to the desktop environment.
Some options:
database: MySql (my fav), Access, MSSql
language: C++, VB, PHP, Java, C#
I have been gravitating towards Access/VisualBasic, not because I like it very much, but because it is simple to set up and deploy. A database server (MySql, MsSql) would probably be too hard to deploy/maintain for the novice computer user. Even though from a purist point of view, C++ is the better language, it would take too much effort to bootstrap an application (IMHO). Java is too cumbersome (again IMHO).
The other consideration is cost. Although I can convince him to acquire proper software runtime licences, I probably won't be able to get him to purchase necessary development tools, and certainly the project isn't paying enough to justify substantial purchases which will probably not be used again.
I would appreciate your input on platform selection, development tools and application frameworks, thanx muchly.
Edit 23-May-09
Thank you everyone for your excellent advice.
I have settled on C# Express. So far, I've avoided learning C#, but what's another language?; and I have a whole week to get up to speed.
I am waffling on whether to go with Access or MSSql (Express) database. With Access, I can deploy the database as a stand-alone file, but MSSql requires that the database server be installed. (AFAIK)
The client requires that the application be installed in multiple locations, some of which are mobile and not connected to the interweb. The dicey part is reconciling all the copies of the database, and determining which is the connonical version.
I'd go with the Express editions of C# and MSSQL. Free and easy to use/set up/deploy. Here's a deeper link to some general material specifically about using VS Express editions for Windows applications.
I suggest: Just use Access. It works for small, simple, single user databases. It's not "just a database" it's also a "database application" and "database application development environment" in it's own right. That is: It's ridiculously quick and easy to throw together a db, CRUD forms, and simple reports; and the built-in VBA is handles most business logic, and you can allways call-out to C# dll's if you need to do anything "interesting".
Just tell the customer they need to loan you the production box for the duration of development (fair enough), and that Access (no need to mention which version) is about $200.00.
Customers who don't pay get they get what they ask for, not what they need.
C# + MSAccess/MSSql(express) = Profit.
I don't know exactly your requirements, but I would suggest the following:
If you had the budget:
Visual Studio Professional
MS SQL or Access
DevExpress Components for forms and
database persistence.
If you don't have the budget
Visual Studio Express
MySql
NHibernate or Linq2Entities
WPF or Windows Forms
I don't know why you think another database engine would be easier to administer than MS SQL. There's a free-as-in-beer edition of MS SQL called 'Express' that might suit. It supports all the same DDL and SQL features as the full database engine: in case you need them; it's just limited in size and number of CPUs.
Likewise there are free/express edition of the developer tools, which aren't missing much functionality (most notably perhaps the ability to write an installation program, but there are other free ways to do that). I don't know PHP or Java but if I were given a choice between C++ and C# (I'm familiar with both), I'd say that C# is virtually as capable for most applications except perhaps soft-real-time, and is quite a bit easier and more pleasant.
My preference would be C# with MSSQL Express. You can use the visual studio express edition for your development environment.
Have you considered Delphi or C++Builder there are free versions available.
Microsoft Visual Studio has express editions which are either cheap or free. That said, the choice is obvious: Winforms with C# or Visual Basic .Net (it's just a syntax question) talking to a MySql backend (for cost issues).
Microsoft Winforms is awesome but limited to Windows (Mono notwithstanding). Enjoy the project. It's way more fun than LAMP in my opinion, but not nearly as universal.
Edit: If you have the extra time and patience (of course you would have to eat the hours and not bill the learning time), though C# is brilliant and very mature (even in .Net 1.1 it was :), you may want to write the app in one of the Python variants for .Net. That's what I would do... Python has a huge following and will probably come up sometime in your non-Microsoft future. C# on the other hand... well, if you Mono it could come up, but otherwise, it's like learning Italian: good in Italy, but useless otherwise. (I should know, I'm writing this from my place in Venice...)
C# or VB.Net with SQLite.Net for the database. Pretty much cross platform across the board.
If you need a database local, one file (.dat) or the suggested from one's IDE (berkeleydb) or Sphinxsearch() Relevance sort order with pivot tables are often what users want and no database required only i/o according to document or graphics type.
If you are developing application on desktop. I would say
Scripting Language:ASP.NET(C#)
Database: MS SQL 2005
Server: Windows Server 2003 with IIS 6
Related
I originally got into programming by learning some javascript while trying to set up a website. I took to programming better than html and CSS and have since been learning more of it. Part of the problem was that I just wanted to do everything myself, all the javascript, CSS, HTML, everything. No external libraries or help. I wanted to understand and do all of it. The general hostility towards WYSIWYG programs from the development community didn't help either.
The amount of work required to do everything completely on my own is what deterred me, though I didn't want to have everything handed to me. A bit down the line from learning programming I decided I wanted to make some simple programs like I kept seeing everyone else make in Visual Studio. With programs, I knew it wouldn't only be difficult, but near impossible for me to do anything but use Visual Studio. As amateur as it feels dragging and dropping buttons and controls and having all the code generated, it's allowed me to work on the more personal aspects of the program and not the nitty gritty and has been a lot more fun.
I've decided that I want to give web development another shot, but this time with a little less ego. Is there any way I can have something like Visual C# for websites?
edit: As of yet, I can't fund my website experiments, so I'm using freehosting. The x10 hosting I use doesn't support asp.net, so I can't use VS for it :(.
You won't be using Visual C# for website design, but you'll use Visual Web Developer. You can download VWD here.
Edit: As per your edit, I would be a bit more concerned with using a technology that you find passion in and feel comfortable with (or at least the foresight to know it's something you want to pursue and dedicate yourself to learning and mastering). Just because you can't host a website application on the internet doesn't mean you should throw the towel in on ASP.NET. Some of the most fun applications are intranet applications. Just get IIS Express up and running and you'll have a blast.
You'd also be surprised at how cheap a webhosting "rental" can be that supports ASP.NET.
I have a development team specialized in ASP.NET. So the solutions we provide are web based, running on IIS and using MS SQL server. Everything within the intranet of the company. The team has this expertise, and they are excellent in C#, and .Net in general.
The company is deploying SharePoint MOSS 2007. This deployment is part of a project that I am not involved in, and for which I have very little information. However I know that they have established the "thinkers" layer (those who will say what to do), the integrations layer (the who will configure, deploy and manage the production), and that they need to establish the so called development layer (those who will do things the other two can't).
I am asked to evaluate the possibility to increase my team's expertise by adding SharePoint development. This is the easy part, I just have to find the required training and send my people.
However these days the word development could mean a lot of things and sometimes I discover that configuration is used in place of development.
I don't have any objections to evolve the team by developing new expertise, but I want to be sure to keep things stimulating for my developers.
Secondly I don't want to say that we have SharePoint development expertise, and actually what we do is just modifying css or xml files. Also, I don't think that using wizards to produce a solution is the best path to push a C# developer to follow.
The questions I am asking myself first is : what is the background of a SharePoint developer? how could .Net developers feel if asked to become SharePoint developers?
Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
I started in Sharepoint development over a year ago when I inherited a WSS 3.0 solution at my company.
Personally I think it was a great step for me getting to know Sharepoint development a little, there are a lot of problems (e.g. security, load – balance, ghosting) that was good to see how was solved by the WSS team and helps me solve problems in other solutions I‘m working on. But I don‘t work on WSS solutions full time, so others have to anwer how it is working with WSS every day.
WSS and Sharepoint are an extension on the ASP.NET platform, so any experience in ASP.NET and .NET in general should be a good foundation for a developer that is starting creating Sharepoint solutions. I read the Inside Microsoft Windows Sharepoint Services 3.0 book in order to get the basic concepts and wss solution architecuture before I started working on WSS projects.
I quickly found out that you have to have a Virtual Machine environment for Sharepoint development, this is because it‘s a pain working on a client and attaching to a remote process on the server to get in debug mode. Therefore I recommend creating a MOSS virtual machine that has Visual Studio installed that has access to your source control system. Develop solutions on that machine and when finished then check into source control.
I also recommend looking at development tools, such as stsdev and wspbuilder to help you building your solution, these will ease you development process quite a bit. There are also quite a lot of tools available on the web, e.g. codeplex to help you out.
Sometimes it can be a pain developing these solutions, changes can require recycling the IIS pool or a brute-force IISReset, error messages can sometimes by a little cryptic and so on. But you quickly catch on and know where to look. Sharepoint also helps you out a lot, I‘ve had millions of questions from clients that can be solved with standard out-of the box web parts, so that I don‘t have to code anhything to keep my clients happy :)
Sharepoint also expects solutions to be coded in certain way, e.g. 12 hive filestructure so it helps you standardizing your solutions.
There is a serious lack of documentation, so that you have to rely on Reflector and such tools a lot, just to know what is happening within the framework, hopefully this gets better with 2010.
The initial learning curve is high, and a lot of new concepts an technologies to learn ,e.g. Workflows within sharepoint, featuers, ghosting and code access security
There is a lot of Xml configuration that sharepoint uses that developers have to learn, this includes the site definition, list templates and more. There are sometimes days when I‘m stuck in Xml edit mode and can‘t figure out why things don‘t work as they should do
These are just few of my thought, I‘ve been working mainly in WSS development and it would be great if someone could comment regarding web part configuration in Sharepoint, e.g. configuring the search. Which is something I haven‘t been doing a lot of.
From what I have heard around, the SharePoint is a popular technology from the customer point of view, but an object of hatred among developers.
Nice to see you noted Dev and Admin being used "incorrectly".
Although Developing for SharePoint could be purely that, development, like creating webparts etc., I strongly encourage you and your team to get to grips with SharePoint deployment, installation and configuration as well. I am fully SharePoint Certified (WSS Config/Dev and MOSS Config/Dev) and having knowledge of both ends has been invaluable for me.
Knowing what is configured where will help in debugging and troubleshooting along the way. I suggest taking an MCTS WSS 3.0 COnfiguration training / and or a MOSS Config training for at least 1 or 2 of your team. The rest of the team will pick up the essentials as they go along, having those 2 certified colleagues as go to guys concerning config and admin.
IMHO, being a sharepoint consultant entails knowing how to create a piece of functionality as a dev and then being able to deploy, configure and maintain that piece of functionality as an admin (or at least an informed end/power user).
Albert, take a look at this other thread titled Is a sharepoint developer technically “equipped” to do custom app dev and vise-versa. There's quite a bit of info in there about what's involved in making the leap from pure .NET to SharePoint.
My co-worker is studying SharePoint at the moment. Making fun of him all the time. Frequently he gabbles something like "wtf is that??!!". And then i feel a bit sad, because i know - there's a probability that i'll have to learn that stuff too (i guess it's not so easy to get projects nowadays).
I see it more as configuration and customization than software development (something like hunting down fing checkbox for 3 days in a row). You pick up some clay through those crazy sharepoint designers and then endlessly customize it.
For everything i know already - there's a new name (i.e. - spGridView) and unexpected behavior underneath.
Html that gets rendered is bizzare (tables and bunch of serialized viewstate everywhere).
But those configuration xml`s... o_0
Now that's a hurdle i can't get over. Even hardcore SQL stuff starts to seem like a childish game.
Maybe i'm wrong, but as i have heard - Microsoft developed 'spatial columns' (let's you expand count of columns for tables over thousandsomething) for sql mainly because of Sharepoint. That terrifies me.
Of course - my opinion is HIGHLY subjective and a bit offensive. But i hope that helps to better reveal what i think & feel about Sharepoint.
Hopefully developers you are working with sees this different.
In short:
No. I wouldn't like to become a sharepoint developer.
Edit:
I could handle that initial complexity. But the main reason i don't want to - i don't think that development in Sharepoint is the right way to go. I mean - lately people discuss that webforms provides too much abstraction. Then what to say about Sharepoint?
To be a successful SharePoint developer you must have a high threshold for pain and the patience of a Buddha.
thank you all for the answers, they are all really helpful.
from what I read here, I see two things to consider.
First is the context of utilization which I think is an important factor. In some places SharePoint "development" could go very far, and could involve developing really exciting things, in order to satisfy new customers' needs. it could involve writing code and so on. And in some other places it could be just administration and configuration, in order to maintain already established solutions.
Secondly is the personal motivation. It really depends on the person. Some .Net developers with good experience, will prefer not to go in a direction, where they will not code the "SharePoint way", and will like to write code in C# or some other languages. However there will be others that will choose this path and will be happy to have such careers. They will be motivated and thus propose really nice solutions.
For example, from my personal perspective and if I had stayed in development and programming, I would not choose SharePoint development using high level wizards and menus,as a progress path for my career. Even though I am not doing it these days, I still enjoy coding, compiling, debugging etc, but this is just me.
I am currently working on a call log project. The boss wants me to use Sharepoint as a base, so I set up a virtual machine with an instance of MOSS 2007. I downloaded microsoft's call center template and installed it. I have been playing around with it for a little while now and it seems pretty simplistic. How can I modify this template (or extend it?) to suit my needs? I would also like to know how it works so if the need arises I could create my own application, so any help will be greatly appreciated here.
Thanks!
edit:
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the aspx files I have found inside this folder:
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\web server extensions\12\TEMPLATE\FEATURES\
have their code-behind already compiled so there will not be much I can do in terms of seeing how the application functions this way. Am I correct here?
I developed several sharepoint features and webparts. And yes, it's a real pain in the a**.
On your Sharepoint Server look at the Directory
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\web server extensions\60\TEMPLATE\1033
There should be the masterpages and CSS Stylessheet you're looking to modify.
SharePoint development can have a steep learning curve and the product seem to fight against you. This is particularly if you're used to ASP.NET and are used to all the freedom that gives. It's quite a large and sometimes complex product with its own framework and way of doing things. That why I strongly recommend doing some serious reading in conjunction with going in and trying things out with existing applications. A few points:
Support
The primary reason is because you could easily end up with an unsupported installation if you change the file system without realising the impact. This will cause serious problems if it is necessary to install service packs or upgrade to a future version. There is usually a way to deploy updated code to SharePoint without needing to go down this path.
Getting results
Another reason is that unless you know what you are doing, hacking around with little knowledge will usually result in a lot of head bashing and few results. Errors can occur that make little sense or changes that you make won't take affect.
The SharePoint way
Finally, you will seriously waste time trying to get things to work if you don't know the 'SharePoint way' of doing something. Knowing 'the way' can save you so much time and integrate with the product nicely, but if you don't know about it prepare for pain! This includes topics from custom code through to CSS and master pages, through to deployment.
I hope this hasn't put you off as it is possible to enjoy the challenge the product provides and there is some very cool stuff you can do with it. For more reading there are several questions on Stack Overflow about getting started with SharePoint development (this is just one).
My experience with MOSS development has not been pretty. IMO, it is not built for application development or custom code. There are many other portals that fit that need well. For the built in collaboration tools, it is a great tool. Going beyond that, it fights you the whole way.
At least that has been my experience.
What Alex said!
Building a call centre application should be very possible with SharePoint. Personally I'm not a fan of the Microsoft templates but they may help giving you ideas on how to build something like that.
I don't know what your app is supposed to do exactly but by building a few web parts and leveraging the oob lists and workflow features you (or a somewhat experienced SharePoint developer) should be able to create something quickly.
You should not let people with negative experiences throw you off. Like it or not, SharePoint is going to stay and once you get over the learning curve it can be very effective as an application platform.
I can see how installing SharePoint can be a pain if you've got no clue what you are doing but it's a server application; a little learning should be expected.
I work for a very small company (~5 employees, 2.5 coders). We have gotten away with no code or document management for several years, but it's starting to catch up with us as we grow a bit.
Any suggestions for a management system. Free is better, but cheap is acceptable. We just don't want to spend more time on installation/configuration than it is going to save us.
We use mostly VC++ 6, but we're branching into VC# 2008. Also, we need to keep track of mechanical drawings and circuit diagrams for several pieces of hardware, as well as user manuals for both hardware and software (but I don't really expect to find one tool that will do all of this, just hoping).
Subversion (SVN) is an excellent option for you. It's free, integrates nicely into Windows with TortoiseSVN, and is well-tolerated by users.
We are using it for source code, as well as for document management.
http://trac.edgewall.org/ - might be a bit hard to install but otherwise is very good if coupled with svn repository
Mantis is good for issue tracking. Subversion for source control. Both are free.
For documents, I do not know. Sounds like you would do fine with a network share.
You may want to look at Trac.
I work for a similar sized company, and when I got here I was in the same place as you. I implemented SVN/Subversion http://subversion.tigris.org/ quite easily. If you use the svn protocol and use svnserve (can be setup as a windows service that auto starts on your server) it should take you 1.5-3 hours to setup depending on how much you want to read http://svnbook.red-bean.com/, see collabnet http://www.collab.net/downloads/subversion/ for the Windows package download
Using Windows, you can use Tortoise SVN which integrates into the windows shell. There is also a new release of Ankh SVN (2.0) http://ankhsvn.open.collab.net/ that integrates into Visual Studio. Ankh is very nice (has pending changes window, kind of similar to Subclipse like functionality) but it is a new release and is somewhat buggy (we have experienced some memory probs and slowness). We currently use both Tortoise for initial checkouts or imports and Ankh for everything else and are pretty happy.
If you have any Mac users, there are a lot of options out there. We have a mac user here who uses Versions http://www.versionsapp.com/, though it sounds like they will charge for it once they get out of beta.
I would recommend SVN because it is widely used out there and I feel that is important with open source projects you are going to use daily for production purposes. Just to spell it out, everything (other than Versions) mentioned is free.
Perforce!
It's extremely fast compared to most other source control systems. It works great remotely. (SSH tunnels, in my case)
The VS plugins are quite decent... I haven't tried the Eclipse one that much yet.
If you can get by with two users with 5 workspaces each, then you can use it for free. (I do, currently)
If that won't work, then it does cost a bit... something like $800/user I believe. Sometime next year I'm probably paying that. (5 workspaces is tough when you work on several machines with VMs)
Still, I heard the slower-than-glacial ClearCase/ClearQuest system one client one mine is using was something like $10k per developer, so expensive where source control is concerned is a relative concept.
Don't skimp on the source control, man! Slow source control is a serious pain in the a$$.
Avoid SourceSafe-like systems that only version files... use systems that track tasks or change sets. It's very useful to see what all belongs together as a task. Tags are not an acceptable substitute.
Also, the journalling nature of Perforce makes backups and recovery a lot easier.
Use Git for source control, Basecamp/Pivotal Tracker/Unfuddled for coding workflow, and Sharepoint/Google Docs for document management.
If you get a MSDN developer license, you can run TFS workgroup edition. That has source control and document management rolled all up in one package that's pretty easy to use and manage. That, in addition to an internal wiki, is what my company does.
Use Subversion. It's free and is the preferred source control system for the vast majority of open source projects.
SVN uses shallow copies, so when you have large files in a repository and you branch, a full file copy isn't done... just a pointer to the original. As for text files (code) only diffs are stored.
Use TortoiseSVN for windows explorer integration.
TFS is a pig, and you'd need to open visual studio to interact with source explorer. Stupid for a CAD engineer to have to need a license to TFS for that.
For document management, just use Windows Sharepoint Services that comes with Windows Server 2003 (or 2008).
I also work for a small company and we mainly develop in .NET languages. We have decided to use Visual SourceSafe for source control, despite its questionable reputation, since it integrates nicely with Visual Studio. VSS works very well for us, and we have not experienced any serious problems with it. Also, we host a SharePoint server, which we use to store documents like coding standards, storyboards, and even our SCRUM log.
We use HostingPlayground. For $6 per month we get multiple Subversion repositories and an instance of Trac. Can't beat it. And since its a service its available immediately.
It seems the solution for your 'management' requirements will require at least a tool or set of tools in the following categories: (sorry about the links, not enough reputation to put proper ones in the reply)
Source Code Management
Trouble/Bug Ticketing
Document Management
Definitely take a look at stackoverflow.com/questions/15024/tools-to-help-a-small-shop-score-higher-on-the-joel-test Tools to help a small shop score higher on the joel test referenced by stackoverflow.com/questions/84303/code-document-management-for-a-very-small-company/84363#84363 Kristopher
Each have various free/open source solutions, and likewise there are commercial solutions.
Source Code Management (SCM)
A significant trend(?) of source code management is evolving from centralised code management with something like TFS(?), cvs or subversion.tigris.org svn), to decentralised 'distributed' source code management with tools such as www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/ or git-scm.com/. Some of the tools either integrate into continutation
The above mentioned source code management tools all have nice ms windows integration tools, and some even have closer Visual Studio integration (e.g. TFS, ankhsvn.open.collab.net/ ANKH svn mentioned by Mario).
A simplistic generalistion would recommend git/mercurial when your coding involves a good portion of time away/off disconnected from your centralised source code repository (such as doing a lot of coding from home when your repository is not accessible through the Internet.)
Wikipedia has a en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_management nice overview of the various issues related to source code management, and the benefits of various options.
If you haven't used scm before, just pick one or two of the tools that fits your groups requirements and test it. Of course, if you know someone near who has experience with a particular scm solution it may help with the team's learning curve to have that shared experience around.
My pick for your scenario: Subversion with ankhsvn.open.collab.net Ankh SVN for Visual Studio integration.
Trouble/Bug Ticketing
None of the tools available solve everything for everybody, each have their advantages and most require some compromise from a development teams existing modus operandi. Again, wikipedia is your friend with a en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bug_tracker general summary and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems comparison of major tools.
Installation
The php based tools are the easiest (in my experience) to get up and running, and the perl tools more involved(?) Of course there's python one that's real easy to install, but then requires a better mind than mine to configure.
My pick for your scenario: trac.edgewall.org/ Trac
Trac is an enhanced wiki and issue tracking system for software development projects. Trac uses a minimalistic approach to web-based software project management. Our mission is to help developers write great software while staying out of the way. Trac should impose as little as possible on a team's established development process and policies.
It provides an interface to Subversion (or other version control systems), an integrated Wiki and convenient reporting facilities.
Trac allows wiki markup in issue descriptions and commit messages, creating links and seamless references between bugs, tasks, changesets, files and wiki pages. A timeline shows all current and past project events in order, making the acquisition of an overview of the project and tracking progress very easy. The roadmap shows the road ahead, listing the upcoming milestones.
Drawings/Document Management
If you use Subversion with Trac then much of your document management may be solved with these tools. Otherwise another stackoverflow discussion topic: stackoverflow.com/questions/587481/developer-documentation-sharepoint-document-management-vs-screwturn-wiki Developer documentation sharepoint document management vs. screwturn wiki, for Windows centric environment, is a good read.
Our application commonly used an ActiveX control to download and install our client on IE (XP and prior), however as our user base has drifted towards more Vista boxes with "Protected Mode" on, we are required to investigate.
So going forward, is it worth the headache of trying to use the protected mode API? Is this going to result in a deluge of dialog boxes and admin rights to do the things our app needs to do (write to some local file places, access some other applications, etc)?
I'm half bent on just adding a non-browser based installer app that will do the dirty work of downloading and installing the client, if need be... this would only need to be installed once and in large corporate structures it could be pushed out by IT.
Are there some other ideas I'm missing?
This client, is it a desktop application and not some software that runs inside the browser? In that case, please just supply a regular download installer application. My personal experience with browser-hosted installers is that they are just confusing and the few I have seen seemed to be poorly coded in some way.
If you use an MSI based installer I'm sure lots of Windows domain administrators will love you too, as Microsoft has tools to deploy MSI based installations onto large sets of machines remotely.
Its far better to do this right than put it off any longer. Vista is Microsoft's way of saying they aren't letting people get away with ignoring security issues any more and encouraging people to update their code.
I'm sure other users here will be able to point you are some MSDN best practices about writing ActiveX controls.
Have you checked out Microsoft's ClickOnce Deployment?
If I remember correctly you can embed a manifests which would help with dealing with protected modes automatically, saving you those headaches with the APIs.
I believe ClickOnce is geared for the same thing your ActiveX installer was designed to do.
Since you say your IT dept could push this out, I assume you could use this kind of technology as well.
Even though you might not be writing applications on the .NET CLR, you can use Visual Studio to generate those manifest and installers for you.