I am reading pthread man and seeing following:
With NPTL, all of the threads in a process are placed in the same
thread group; all members of a thread group share the same PID.
My current architecture is running on NPTL 2.17 and when I run htop that is showing threads I see that all PIDs are unique. But why? I am expecting some of them (e.g. chrome) sharing same PID with each other?
See man gettid:
gettid() returns the caller's thread ID (TID). In a single-threaded
process, the thread ID is equal to the process ID (PID, as returned
by getpid(2)). In a multithreaded process, all threads have the same
PID, but each one has a unique TID. For further details, see the
discussion of CLONE_THREAD in clone(2).
What htop shows is TID, not PID. You can toggle display of the threads on/off with H key.
You can also enable PPID column in htop and that shows the PID / TID of the main thread for threads.
Google's documentation for Chromium (which probably operates similarly to Chrome when it comes to these concepts) states that they use a "multi-process architecture". Your quote from pthread's man page states that all of the threads in a single process are placed under the same PID, which would not apply to Chrome's architecture.
Because kernel-level threads are no more than processes with the (nearly) same address space.
This was "solved" by the linux kernel development by renaming them the processes to "threads", the "pid"-s to "tid"-s, and the old processes became "thread groups".
However, the sad truth is that if you create the thread on Linux (clone()), it will create a process - only using the (nearly) same memory segments.
That means 1:1 thread model. It means that all the threads are actually kernel-level threads, meaning that they are essentially processes in the same address space.
Some other alternatives would be:
1:M thread model. It means that the kernel doesn't know about threads, it is the task of the user-space libraries to make an "in-process multitasking" to run appearantly multi-threaded.
N:M thread model. This is best, unfortunately some opinion favorize still 1:1. It would mean that we have both user- and kernel-level threads and some optimization algorithm decides, what to run and where.
Once Linux had an N:M model (ngpt), but it was removed on a yet another fallback. It was that Linux kernel calls are inherently synchronous (blocking). Resulting that some kernel-cooperation had been needed even for user-space synchronization. Nobody wanted to do that.
So is it.
P.s. to create a well-performant app, you should actually avoid to create a lot of threads at once. You need to use a thread pool with well-thought locking protocols. If you don't minimize the usage of the thread creations/joins, your app will be slow and ineffective, it doesn't matter if it is N:M or not.
The Linux kernel does have the concept of POSIX pids (explorable in /proc/*) but it calls them thread group ids in the kernel source and it refers to its internal thread ids as pids (explorable in /proc/*/task/*).
I believe this is rooted in Linux's original treatment of threads as "just processes" that happen to share address spaces and a bunch of other stuff with each other.
Your user tool is likely propagating this perhaps confusing Linux kernel terminology.
While going through OPERATING SYSTEM PRINCIPLES, 7TH ED
(By Abraham Silberschatz, Peter Baer Galvin, Greg Gagne), i encountered a
statement in Thread Scheduling Section.It is given as -:
To run on a CPU, user-level threads must ultimately be mapped
to an associated kernel-level thread, although this mapping may
be indirect and may use a lightweight process (LWP).
The first half of the statement i.e
To run on a CPU, user-level threads must ultimately be mapped to an associated kernel-level
is trying to say that When a user level thread is executed ,it will need support from kernel thread like system calls.
But i am completely stuck in other half i.e
although this mapping may
be indirect and may use a lightweight process (LWP)
What does it really mean ???
Please help me out !
You're reading a book that is notoriously crapola. Threads are implemented in two ways.
In the olde days (and still persists on some operating systems) there were just processes. A process consisted of an execution stream and an address space.
When languages that needed thread support (e.g., Ada—"tasks") there was a need to create libraries to implement threads. The libraries used timers to switch among the various threads within the process. This is poor man's threading. The major drawback here is that, even when you have multiple processors, all the threads of a process run on the same processor. The threads are just interleaved execution within a single process that executes on one processors.
These are sometimes called "user level threads." Some books call this the "many-to-one model."
To say
To run on a CPU, user-level threads must ultimately be mapped to an associated kernel-level thread
is highly misleading. There [usually] ARE no kernel threads in this model; just processes. Multiple threads run interleaved in a process. To call this a mapping "to an associated kernel-level thread" is misleading and overly theoretical.
This is mumbo jumbo.
although this mapping may be indirect and may use a lightweight process (LWP)
The next stage in operating system evolution here was for the operating system to support threads directly. Instead of a process being an execution stream + address-space, a process became one-or-more-threads + address-space. Instead of scheduling processes for execution, the OS schedules threads for execution.
Those are kernel threads.
Your book is making the simple complex.
These days the term Light Weight Processes and threads are used interchangeably.
although this mapping may be indirect and may use a lightweight
process (LWP)
I know the above statement is confusing(Notice the 2 mays). I can think only 1 thing which the above statement signifies is that:
Earlier when linux supported only user-level threads, the kernel was unaware of the fact that there are multiple user-level threads, and the way it handled these multiple threads was by associating all of them to a light weight process(which kernel sees as a single scheduling and execution unit) at kernel level.
So associating a kernel-level thread with each user-level thread is kind of direct mapping and associating a single light weight process with each user-level thread is indirect mapping.
I'm learning about threads and processes in an Operating Systems course, and I've come across an apparent contradiction in my textbook (Modern Operating Systems, 4th Ed. by Tanenbaum and Bos). I'm sure there's a something I'm misinterpreting here, it'd be great if someone could clear things up.
On page 106:
Another common thread call is thread_yield, which allows a thread to voluntarily give up the CPU to let another thread run. Such a call is important because there is no clock interrupt to actually enforce multiprogramming as there is with processes
Ok fine - so how I interpret that is that threads will never give up control unless they willingly cede it. Makes sense.
Then on page 116, in an example of threads mishandling shared information:
As an example, consider the errno variable maintained by UNIX. When a process (or a thread) makes a system call that fails, the error code is put into errno. In Fig. 2-19, thread 1 executes the system call access to find out if it has permission to access a certain file. The operating system returns the answer in the global variable errno. After control has returned to thread 1, but before it has a chance to read errno, the scheduler decides that thread 1 has had enough CPU time for the moment and decides to switch to thread 2.
But didn't thread 1 just get pulled from the CPU involuntarily? I thought there was no way to enforce thread switching as there is with process switching?
This makes sense if we're going about process-level threads instead of OS-level threads. The CPU can interrupt a process (regardless of what thread is running), but because the OS is not aware of process-level threads, it cannot interrupt them. If one thread inside the process wants to allow another thread to run, it has to specifically yield to the other thread.
However, most languages these days use OS-level threads, which the OS does know about and can pre-empt.
The confusion is that there are two different ways threads are implemented. In ye olde days there was no thread support at all. The DoD's mandate of the Ada programming language (in which tasks—aka threads—were is an integral part) forced the adoption of threads.
Run time libraries were created (largely to support Ada). That worked within a process. The process maintained a timer that would interrupt a threads and the library would switch among threads much like the operating system switches processes.
Note that this system only allows one thread of a process at a time to execute, even on a multiprocessor system.
Your first example is describing such a library but it is describing a very primitive thread library where thread scheduling is based upon cooperation among the various threads of the process.
Later, operating system started to develop support for threads. Rather than scheduling a process, the operating system schedules threads for execution. A process is then an address space with a collection of threads. Your second example is talking about this kind of thread.
I was asked this interview question. I replied that thread is the process after thinking that process is a superset of thread but interviewer didn't agree with it. It is confusing and I'm not able to find any clear answer to this.
A process is an executing instance of an application.
A thread is a path of execution within a process.
Also, a process can contain multiple threads.
1.
It’s important to note that a thread can do anything a process can do.
But since a process can consist of multiple threads, a thread could be
considered a ‘lightweight’ process. Thus, the essential difference
between a thread and a process is the work that each one is used to
accomplish. Threads are used for small tasks, whereas processes are
used for more ‘heavyweight’ tasks – basically the execution of
applications.
2.
Another difference between a thread and a process is that threads
within the same process share the same address space, whereas
different processes do not. This allows threads to read from and write
to the same data structures and variables, and also facilitates
communication between threads. Communication between processes – also
known as IPC, or inter-process communication – is quite difficult and
resource-intensive.
I feel like this is a terrible question.
Both are independent blocks of execution
Both are scheduled by the operating system
Threads run within the context of a process, share memory with the process.
I can't think of a time where a thread would have it's own address space
By that logic I would agree with your answer that a thread is a process. I think its kind of a loaded question. I would have asked you to explain the differences between the two.
For more information here's a good thread to view on the subject.
Every process is a thread, but not every thread is a process.
A thread is just an independet sequence of operations. A process has an additional context.
The nature of a thread is highly system dependent. For example, some systems implement threads as part of the operating system. Other system implement threads through a run-time library. The process itself manages its own threads (not the OS) and the management may be different for different processes (e.g., Java threading implemented differently from Ada threading).
In OS-scheduled threads, a thread and a process are different terms. A process is an address space with multiple, schedulable threads of execution.
In RTL-scheduled threads, the process is a thread.
I've been looking through a few notes based on this topic, and although I have an understanding of threads in general, I'm not really to sure about the differences between user-level and kernel-level threads.
I know that processes are basically made up of multiple threads or a single thread, but are these thread of the two prior mentioned types?
From what I understand, kernel-supported threads have access to the kernel for system calls and other uses not available to user-level threads.
So, are user-level threads simply threads created by the programmer when then utilise kernel-supported threads to perform operations that couldn't be normally performed due to its state?
Edit: The question was a little confusing, so I'm answering it two different ways.
OS-level threads vs Green Threads
For clarity, I usually say "OS-level threads" or "native threads" instead of "Kernel-level threads" (which I confused with "kernel threads" in my original answer below.) OS-level threads are created and managed by the OS. Most languages have support for them. (C, recent Java, etc) They are extremely hard to use because you are 100% responsible for preventing problems. In some languages, even the native data structures (such as Hashes or Dictionaries) will break without extra locking code.
The opposite of an OS-thread is a green thread that is managed by your language. These threads are given various names depending on the language (coroutines in C, goroutines in Go, fibers in Ruby, etc). These threads only exist inside your language and not in your OS. Because the language chooses context switches (i.e. at the end of a statement), it prevents TONS of subtle race conditions (such as seeing a partially-copied structure, or needing to lock most data structures). The programmer sees "blocking" calls (i.e. data = file.read() ), but the language translates it into async calls to the OS. The language then allows other green threads to run while waiting for the result.
Green threads are much simpler for the programmer, but their performance varies: If you have a LOT of threads, green threads can be better for both CPU and RAM. On the other hand, most green thread languages can't take advantage of multiple cores. (You can't even buy a single-core computer or phone anymore!). And a bad library can halt the entire language by doing a blocking OS call.
The best of both worlds is to have one OS thread per CPU, and many green threads that are magically moved around onto OS threads. Languages like Go and Erlang can do this.
system calls and other uses not available to user-level threads
This is only half true. Yes, you can easily cause problems if you call the OS yourself (i.e. do something that's blocking.) But the language usually has replacements, so you don't even notice. These replacements do call the kernel, just slightly differently than you think.
Kernel threads vs User Threads
Edit: This is my original answer, but it is about User space threads vs Kernel-only threads, which (in hindsight) probably wasn't the question.
User threads and Kernel threads are exactly the same. (You can see by looking in /proc/ and see that the kernel threads are there too.)
A User thread is one that executes user-space code. But it can call into kernel space at any time. It's still considered a "User" thread, even though it's executing kernel code at elevated security levels.
A Kernel thread is one that only runs kernel code and isn't associated with a user-space process. These are like "UNIX daemons", except they are kernel-only daemons. So you could say that the kernel is a multi-threaded program. For example, there is a kernel thread for swap. This forces all swap issues to get "serialized" into a single stream.
If a user thread needs something, it will call into the kernel, which marks that thread as sleeping. Later, the swap thread finds the data, so it marks the user thread as runnable. Later still, the "user thread" returns from the kernel back to userland as if nothing happened.
In fact, all threads start off in kernel space, because the clone() operation happens in kernel space. (And there's lots of kernel accounting to do before you can 'return' to a new process in user space.)
Before we go into comparison, let us first understand what a thread is. Threads are lightweight processes within the domain of independent processes. They are required because processes are heavy, consume a lot of resources and more importantly,
two separate processes cannot share a memory space.
Let's say you open a text editor. It's an independent process executing in the memory with a separate addressable location. You'll need many resources within this process, such as insert graphics, spell-checks etc. It's not feasible to create separate processes for each of these functionalities and maintain them independently in memory. To avoid this,
multiple threads can be created within a single process, which can
share a common memory space, existing independently within a process.
Now, coming back to your questions, one at a time.
I'm not really to sure about the differences between user-level and kernel-level threads.
Threads are broadly classified as user level threads and kernel level threads based on their domain of execution. There are also cases when one or many user thread maps to one or many kernel threads.
- User Level Threads
User level threads are mostly at the application level where an application creates these threads to sustain its execution in the main memory. Unless required, these thread work in isolation with kernel threads.
These are easier to create since they do not have to refer many registers and context switching is much faster than a kernel level thread.
User level thread, mostly can cause changes at the application level and the kernel level thread continues to execute at its own pace.
- Kernel Level Threads
These threads are mostly independent of the ongoing processes and are executed by the operating system.
These threads are required by the Operating System for tasks like memory management, process management etc.
Since these threads maintain, execute and report the processes required by the operating system; kernel level threads are more expensive to create and manage and context switching of these threads are slow.
Most of the kernel level threads can not be preempted by the user level threads.
MS DOS written for Intel 8088 didn't have dual mode of operation. Thus, a user level process had the ability to corrupt the entire operating system.
- User Level Threads mapped over Kernel Threads
This is perhaps the most interesting part. Many user level threads map over to kernel level thread, which in-turn communicate with the kernel.
Some of the prominent mappings are:
One to One
When one user level thread maps to only one kernel thread.
advantages: each user thread maps to one kernel thread. Even if one of the user thread issues a blocking system call, the other processes remain unaffected.
disadvantages: every user thread requires one kernel thread to interact and kernel threads are expensive to create and manage.
Many to One
When many user threads map to one kernel thread.
advantages: multiple kernel threads are not required since similar user threads can be mapped to one kernel thread.
disadvantage: even if one of the user thread issues a blocking system call, all the other user threads mapped to that kernel thread are blocked.
Also, a good level of concurrency cannot be achieved since the kernel will process only one kernel thread at a time.
Many to Many
When many user threads map to equal or lesser number of kernel threads. The programmer decides how many user threads will map to how many kernel threads. Some of the user threads might map to just one kernel thread.
advantages: a great level of concurrency is achieved. Programmer can decide some potentially dangerous threads which might issue a blocking system call and place them with the one-to-one mapping.
disadvantage: the number of kernel threads, if not decided cautiously can slow down the system.
The other part of your question:
kernel-supported threads have access to the kernel for system calls
and other uses not available to user-level threads.
So, are user-level threads simply threads created by the programmer
when then utilise kernel-supported threads to perform operations that
couldn't be normally performed due to its state?
Partially correct. Almost all the kernel thread have access to system calls and other critical interrupts since kernel threads are responsible for executing the processes of the OS. User thread will not have access to some of these critical features. e.g. a text editor can never shoot a thread which has the ability to change the physical address of the process. But if needed, a user thread can map to kernel thread and issue some of the system calls which it couldn't do as an independent entity. The kernel thread would then map this system call to the kernel and would execute actions, if deemed fit.
Quote from here :
Kernel-Level Threads
To make concurrency cheaper, the execution aspect of process is separated out into threads. As such, the OS now manages threads and processes. All thread operations are implemented in the kernel and the OS schedules all threads in the system. OS managed threads are called kernel-level threads or light weight processes.
NT: Threads
Solaris: Lightweight processes(LWP).
In this method, the kernel knows about and manages the threads. No runtime system is needed in this case. Instead of thread table in each process, the kernel has a thread table that keeps track of all threads in the system. In addition, the kernel also maintains the traditional process table to keep track of processes. Operating Systems kernel provides system call to create and manage threads.
Advantages:
Because kernel has full knowledge of all threads, Scheduler may decide to give more time to a process having large number of threads than process having small number of threads.
Kernel-level threads are especially good for applications that frequently block.
Disadvantages:
The kernel-level threads are slow and inefficient. For instance, threads operations are hundreds of times slower than that of user-level threads.
Since kernel must manage and schedule threads as well as processes. It require a full thread control block (TCB) for each thread to maintain information about threads. As a result there is significant overhead and increased in kernel complexity.
User-Level Threads
Kernel-Level threads make concurrency much cheaper than process because, much less state to allocate and initialize. However, for fine-grained concurrency, kernel-level threads still suffer from too much overhead. Thread operations still require system calls. Ideally, we require thread operations to be as fast as a procedure call. Kernel-Level threads have to be general to support the needs of all programmers, languages, runtimes, etc. For such fine grained concurrency we need still "cheaper" threads.
To make threads cheap and fast, they need to be implemented at user level. User-Level threads are managed entirely by the run-time system (user-level library).The kernel knows nothing about user-level threads and manages them as if they were single-threaded processes.User-Level threads are small and fast, each thread is represented by a PC,register,stack, and small thread control block. Creating a new thread, switiching between threads, and synchronizing threads are done via procedure call. i.e no kernel involvement. User-Level threads are hundred times faster than Kernel-Level threads.
Advantages:
The most obvious advantage of this technique is that a user-level threads package can be implemented on an Operating System that does not support threads.
User-level threads does not require modification to operating systems.
Simple Representation: Each thread is represented simply by a PC, registers, stack and a small control block, all stored in the user process address space.
Simple Management: This simply means that creating a thread, switching between threads and synchronization between threads can all be done without intervention of the kernel.
Fast and Efficient: Thread switching is not much more expensive than a procedure call.
Disadvantages:
User-Level threads are not a perfect solution as with everything else, they are a trade off. Since, User-Level threads are invisible to the OS they are not well integrated with the OS. As a result, Os can make poor decisions like scheduling a process with idle threads, blocking a process whose thread initiated an I/O even though the process has other threads that can run and unscheduling a process with a thread holding a lock. Solving this requires communication between between kernel and user-level thread manager.
There is a lack of coordination between threads and operating system kernel. Therefore, process as whole gets one time slice irrespect of whether process has one thread or 1000 threads within. It is up to each thread to relinquish control to other threads.
User-level threads requires non-blocking systems call i.e., a multithreaded kernel. Otherwise, entire process will blocked in the kernel, even if there are runable threads left in the processes. For example, if one thread causes a page fault, the process blocks.
User Threads
The library provides support for thread creation, scheduling and management with no support from the kernel.
The kernel unaware of user-level threads creation and scheduling are done in user space without kernel intervention.
User-level threads are generally fast to create and manage they have drawbacks however.
If the kernel is single-threaded, then any user-level thread performing a blocking system call will cause the entire process to block, even if other threads are available to run within the application.
User-thread libraries include POSIX Pthreads, Mach C-threads,
and Solaris 2 UI-threads.
Kernel threads
The kernel performs thread creation, scheduling, and management in kernel space.
kernel threads are generally slower to create and manage than are user threads.
the kernel is managing the threads, if a thread performs a blocking system call.
A multiprocessor environment, the kernel can schedule threads on different processors.
5.including Windows NT, Windows 2000, Solaris 2, BeOS, and Tru64 UNIX (formerlyDigital UN1X)-support kernel threads.
Some development environments or languages will add there own threads like feature, that is written to take advantage of some knowledge of the environment, for example a GUI environment could implement some thread functionality which switch between user threads on each event loop.
A game library could have some thread like behaviour for characters. Sometimes the user thread like behaviour can be implemented in a different way, for example I work with cocoa a lot, and it has a timer mechanism which executes your code every x number of seconds, use fraction of a seconds and it like a thread. Ruby has a yield feature which is like cooperative threads. The advantage of user threads is they can switch at more predictable times. With kernel thread every time a thread starts up again, it needs to load any data it was working on, this can take time, with user threads you can switch when you have finished working on some data, so it doesn't need to be reloaded.
I haven't come across user threads that look the same as kernel threads, only thread like mechanisms like the timer, though I have read about them in older text books so I wonder if they were something that was more popular in the past but with the rise of true multithreaded OS's (modern Windows and Mac OS X) and more powerful hardware I wonder if they have gone out of favour.