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At home I'm working on a large personal project written in Java. I recently found employment as a C# developer.
After an 8 hour workday reading C# code, I find it very hard to switch back to Java at home. Actually, my home project stalled almost completely since I've been employed.
At first I thought I'd have to wait for vacation to actually switch back to Java, but even after a week of not having C# on the brain, I did not manage to come into Java-mood again. I do not want to admit that my home project died, but I can't really see a way to overcome this issue.
If it's that bad, can you start the project again in C#? It may be quicker than waiting for your java-mood to return. It should be quicker than starting from scratch, as you've coded the logic and domain already, so you may be able to translate-and-type your way through that bit.
Use a good (and comparable) IDE in both. I switch between C# and Java, and find the combination of Visual Studio with JetBrains ReSharper for C# and IntelliJ Idea for Java makes this straightforward.
Celebrate the differences - I find a spell in C# helps my Java and vice versa. Differences in, for example, the collection frameworks just help you understand the implementations in each language more deeply.
Use the similarities to your advantage. Syntactically, the differences are not great. You should be writing code, not writing C# or writing Java. As Steve McConnell would put it, "code into the language and not in the language" (or something like that - think it's from Code Complete).
In fact, read Code Complete if you haven't already - great training for flipping between languages.
I suppose you could call this the habitual time to recovery,.
It can help to generalize to: programming logic knowledge + syntax and API = Language Knowledge ... because ...
Human beings are creatures of habit and build efficient work methods, memories and psychology based on environments and tasks we perform most often. This is a good thing.
I recently spent alot of time programming in Python, after being almost 100% C for a long time. I picked up Python quite easily and now am switching back to C. To my surprise, the problems I thought I would encounter (missing semi-colons, the random impulse to indent) were not there.
I concluded this is because:
While I was programming Python, I was frequently (daily) looking at the C source of other projects to remember the ones I didn't document too well. Because my C projects fit in with the Python stuff.
I was always looking at the C implementation of some of the Python stuff
I guess the trick is to relate new skills to old skills so that when you conduct tasks in the new skillset, your brain is still thinking about the old skills and how they related. Many theorise that learning is based on this relational foundation in your mind, and knowing about it can help you reduce the learning curve and time to recovery.
Think of it like a relational database. When you do something new, create a forign key and normalize things out. Don't create a whole new table or database.
Learn a generalization of programming logic and build on that with just the changes between languages. You will learn/switch faster.
Sorry for the bad RDBMS analogy
Your brain is full.
Full Brain http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2469/brainfull.gif
Firstly, if you've put in an 8 hour day programming in any language, it may not be switching languages so much as just needing a break from programming. I can only speak for myself, and I know some SO'ers may feel otherwise, but I often need a break from programming after a full work day of doing it.
Currently I prefer to program in Python, but my job wants me to do shell scripting, Java, JavaScript, PHP, and IDL (that's Interactive Data Language, not Interface Description Language). So, I try to do some Python at home to keep those skills from atrophying. What I find (in addition to often needing a break as mentioned above) is that I get my languages confused a lot when I first switch from one to another. It's easy at that point to give up, but I find that as I get mentally deeper into programming with a given language I make fewer mistakes from the language confusion. So, maybe if you can just push past that first reluctance to use Java, you'll have success. YMMV, of course, and good luck!
This is because of something in psychology called the interference effect, or Stroop Effect. The two tasks are closely related (programming) so the knowledge brought into your mind by one language interferes with the knowledge brought into your mind by the other language.
Here's a cute example of a simple task that is hard to do because of this effect:
http://www.apa.org/science/stroop.html
Switching between two different frameworks is very hard to do. It's even harder if you haven't been doing them for very long.
The question, I think, has to come back to you in that you should ask yourself what you prefer now. If you still like Java and want to keep your skills up in Java, you will probably need to spend more time with it on a semi-daily basis. Working with it on nights and weekends and making sure there are no long breaks in between.
If you prefer C# now and really have no interest in persuing Java, I would convert the project at home to C# as that can only make you a better C# programmer and make you better at your day job.
I wonder if it's related to the similarities between those particular languages. Granted I've not actually used C#, but it seems pretty similar to Java. The similarities might make it difficult to context switch from work to hobby. Maybe you could learn and switch to Python, Haskell, Lisp, etc. for your personal project.
You could try spending some time programming in a completely different language in your spare time. For example, write something in Haskell, Prolog, Mercury, Oz, or Factor.
When (if?) you come back to Java, its similarities to C# will be much more striking than its differences.
That is normal. It may be a problem of Cognitive Flexibility and Inflexibility. It happens with human speech too.
Check yourself. If you are getting too tired to work at home after your regular 8 hour workday reading C# code, and also you want so much to finish your project, and now you find difficult to code in java, you may be suffering from anxiety. If you take some energy drink, coffee, cola, then you are favoring anxiety.
There are exercises for keeping yourself Cognitive Flexible. One of them is to switch for a while (couple of minutes) to Java instead of spending so much time in C#. It is like when you are programming in Java and have to switch to SQL, then to HTML. You are being flexible and switching.
Good luck.
As I answer this i feel I need to make some assumptions here based on personal experience. I write code in C++ or c# on side projects while at work am forced to dangle between php and python
There was a time i was without a steady day job and kept pretty busy on side projects.
When i landed my day job the enthusiasm i had for my side projects dwindled based on two major factors... Like you i was at my job 8 to 9 hrs a day.
2ndly i had an increased steady source of additional revenue so the motivation to code just to earn a living drastically reduced and i found myself more and more opting not to take up any new projects after work coz i jus wasnt in the mood anymore.
I also discovered that with this new attitude i started making rookie mistakes when coding in c++ unlike before. After changing my attitude things picked up again.
My best guess is that you are going through the same thing that i was going through. I suggest you find new ways to get motivated once you leave work and you will find it easier to continue programming in java.
I have a similar thing at work. I write code in JavaScript and c# but at home I write code in Python and JavaScript.
I have sometimes caught myself writing python style code in c# and then getting my tests failing. I agree with Nat that working in a language that is totally different from your work language will help you see the similarities and that they only differences will be where the libraries exist!
You know when you are overworked: it's when you try to find F1 key in the elevator cabin to launch it up!
I think java is for the diligent, and .net is for the lazy.
Perhaps someone would be angry for that,but I wanna say I am a .Neter.The .net syntax is less strict than the java's.In fact in the source code of .net,there is some simplify.
for example,we can use Convert.toDateTime(string) to Convert a String to DateTime directly.
But in java,we should make the difinition of the string's format such as "yyyy-dd-mm" then we can convert.
Related
The title may seem slightly self-contradictory, and I accept that you can't really learn a language quickly. However, an experienced programmer that already has knowledge of a few languagues and different styles (functional, OO, imperative etc.) often wants to get started quickly. I've seen a few websites doing effective "translations" in the form of "just show me syntax equivalence". I can't remember the sites now, but for related languages (e.g. Perl/PHP) it's quite common.
Is there a better resource that covers more languages? Is there a resource that covers idioms as well as syntax? I think this would be incredibly useful for doing small amounts of work on existing code bases where you are not familiar with the language. Looking at the existing code, as we know, is not always a good indicator of quality. Likewise, for "learn by doing" weekend project I always have the urge to write reasonably idiomatic, clean code from the start. Such a resource could also link to known good example projects of varying sizes for those that prefer to learn by reading. Reading a well-written medium sized code base can also be much more practical when access to development environments might be limited.
I think it's possible to find tutorials and summaries for individual languages that provide some of this functionality in disparate web locations but I'm hoping there is a good, centralised, comparative place that the busy programmer can turn to.
You generally have two main things to overcome:
Syntax
Reference
Syntax you can pick up fairly quickly with a language tutorial and a stack of samplecode.
Reference (library/API calls) you need to find a proper guide to; perhaps the language reference, or perhaps google...
With those two in place, following a walkthrough (to get you used to using the development environment) will have you pretty much ready - you'll be able to look up what you want to say (reference), and know how to say it (syntax).
This, of course, applies principally to procedural/oop languages; languages that require a paradigm switch (ML/Haskell) you should go to lectures for ;)
(and for the weirder moments, there's SO!)
In the past my favour was "learning by doing". So e.g. I know a little bit of C++ and a lot of C#.Net but I must write a FTP Tool in Python.
So I sit for an hour and so the syntax differences by a tutorial, than I develop the form itself and look at the generated code. Then I search a open source Python FTP Client and get pieces of code (Not copy and paste, write it self to see, feel and remember the code!)
After a few hours I get it.
So: The mix is the best. A book, a piece of good code, the willing to learn and a free night with much coffee.
At the risk of sounding cheesy, I would start with the language's website tutorial and/or FAQ, followed by asking more specific questions here. SO is my centralized location for programming knowledge.
I remember when I learned Perl. I was asked to modify some Perl code at work and I'd never seen the language before. I had experience with several other languages, however, so it wasn't hard to figure out the syntax with the online Perl docs in one window and the code in another, side-by-side. I don't know that solely reading existing code is necessarily the best way to learn. In my case, I didn't know Perl but I could tell that the person who originally wrote the code didn't know Perl either. I'm not sure I could've distinguished between good Perl and really confusing Perl. It would've been nice to be able to ask questions here at the time.
Language isn't important. What is important is learning your ways around designing algorithms and the proper application of design patterns. Focus on the technique, not the language that implements a certain technique. Once you understand the proper development techniques, any programming language will just become real easy, no matter how obscure they are...
When you put a focus on a language, you're restricting your own knowledge.
http://devcheatsheet.com/ seems to be a step in the right direction: it aggregates cheat sheets/quick references and they are (somewhat) manually reviewed. It's also wide-ranging. It still comes up short a bit in terms of "idiomatic" quick reference: for example, the page on Ruby doesn't mention yield.
Rosetta Code appears to be an excellent resource that includes hints on coding idiomatically and moves from simple (like for-loops) to things like drawing. I haven't checked out how comprehensive it is, but there are a large number of languages and tasks listed. The drawbacks re: original question are:
Some of the linking is not accurate
(navigating Python->ForLoop will
take you to the top of the ForLoop
page, not the Python section). It's a
wiki, this can be improved.
Ideally you could "slice" the wiki
however you chose to see e.g. the top
20 tasks for two languages
side-by-side.
http://hyperpolyglot.org/ seems to be an almost perfect match for what I was looking for. The quality is not always there, or idiom can be lacking, but it has the same intention and is pretty comprehensive.
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Have you ever tried learning a language while on a project? I have, and from my personal experience I can say that it takes courage, effort, time, thinking, lots of caffeine and no sleep. Sometimes this has to be done without choice, other times you choose to do it; if you are working on a personal project for example.
What I normally do in this kind of situation, and I believe everyone does, is "build" on top of my current knowledge of languages, structures, syntax and logic. What I find difficult to cope with, is the difference of integrity in some cases. Some languages offer a good background for future learning and "language study", they pose as a good source of information or a frame of reference and can give a "firm" grasp of what's to come. Other languages form or introduce a new way of thinking and are harder to get used to.
Sometimes you unintentionally think in a specific language and when introduced to a new way of thinking, a new language, can cause confusion or make you get lost between the "borders" of your new and your current knowledge of languages.
What can be a good solution in this case? What should be used to broaden the knowledge of the new language, a new way of thinking, and maintain or incorporate the current knowledge of other languages inside the "borders" of the new language?
I find I need to do a project to properly learn a language, but those can be personal projects. When I learned Python on the job, I first expected (and found) a significant slowdown in my productivity for a while. I read the standard tutorials, coding standards and I lurked on the Python list for a while, which gave me a much better idea of the best practices of the language.
Doing things like coding dojos and stuff when learning a language can help you get a feel for things. I just recently changed jobs and went back to Java, and I spent some time working on toy programs just to get back in the feel for things (I'm also reading Effective Java, 2nd edition as my previous major experience had been with Java 1.4).
I think, in some respects no matter what the impetus for learning the language, you have to start by imitating good patterns in the new language. Whether that means finding a good book, with excellent code examples, good on-line tutorials, or following the lead of a more experienced developer, you have to absorb what it means to write good code in a particular language first. Once you have developed a level of comfort, you can start branching out and and experimenting with alternatives to the patterns that you've learned, looking for ways to apply things you've learned from other languages, but keeping within the "rules" of the language. Eventually, you'll get to the point where you know you can 'break the rules" that you learned earlier because you have enough experience to know when they do/don't apply.
My personal preference, even when forced to learn a new language, is to start with some throw away code. Even starting from good tutorials, you'll undoubtedly write code that later you will look back on and not understand how stupid you could have been. I prefer, if possible, to write as my first foray into a language code that will be thrown away and not come back to haunt me later. The alternative is to spend a lot of time refactoring as you learn more and more. Eventually, you'll end up doing this, too.
I would like to mention ALT.NET here
Self-organizing, ad-hoc community of developers bound by a desire to improve ourselves, challenge assumptions, and help each other pursue excellence in the practice of software development.
So in the spirit of ALT.NET, it is challenging but useful to reach out of your comfort zone to learn new languages. Some things that really helped me are as follows:
Understand the history behind a language or script. Knowing evolution helps a lot.
Pick the right book. Research StackOverflow and Amazon.com to find the right book to help you ease the growing pains.
OOP is fairly common in most of the mature languages, so you can skip many of the chapters related to OOP in many books. Syntax learning will be a gradual process. I commonly bookmark some quick handy guides for that.
Read as many community forums as possible to understand the common pitfalls of the new language.
Attend some local meetups to interact with the community and share your pains.
Take one pitch at a time by building small not so complicated applications and thereby gaining momentum.
Make sure you create a reference frame for what you need to learn. Things like how security, logging, multithreading are handled.
Be Open minded, you can be critical, but if you hate something then do not learn that language.
Finally, I think it is worthwhile to learn one strong languages like C# or Java, one functional language and one scripting language like ruby or python.
These things helped me tremendously and I think will help all software engineers and architects to really gear for any development environment.
I learned PHP after I was hired to be the project lead on the Zend Framework project.
It helped that I had 20 years of professional programming background, and good knowledge of C, Java, Perl, JavaScript, SQL, etc. I've also gravitated towards dynamic scripting languages for most of my career. I've written applications in awk, frameworks in shell, macro packages in troff, I even wrote a forum using only sed.
Things to help learn a language on the job:
Reading code and documentation.
Listening to mailing lists and blogs of the community.
Talking to experts in the language, fortunately several of whom were my immediate teammates.
Writing practice code, and asked for code reviews and coaching.(Zend_Console_Getopt was my first significant PHP contribution).
Learning the tools that go along with the language. PHPUnit, Xdebug, phpDoc, phing, etc.
Of course I did apply what I knew from other programming languages. Many computer science concepts are language-universal. The differences of a given language are often simply idiomatic, a way of stating something that can be done another way in another language. This is especially true for languages like Perl or PHP, which both borrow a lot of idioms from earlier languages.
It also helped that I took courses in Compiler Design in college. Having a good foundation in how languages are constructed makes it easier to pick up new languages. At some level, they're all just ways of abstracting runtime stacks and object references.
If you're a junior member of the team and don't know the language, this is not necessarily an issue at all. As long as there is some code review and supervision, you can be a productive.
Language syntax is one issue, but architectural differences are a more important concern. Many languages are also development platforms, and if you don't have experience with the platform, you don't know how to create a viable solution architecture. So if you're the project lead or working solo, you'd better have some experience on the platform before you do your design work.
For example, I would say an experienced C# coder with no VB experience would probably survive a VB.NET project just fine. In fact, it would be more difficult for a developer who only had experience in C#/ASP.NET to complete a C# WPF project than a VB ASP.NET project. An experienced PHP developer might hesitate a bit on a ColdFusion project, but they probably won't make any serious blunders because they are familiar with a script based web development architecture.
Many concepts, such as object modelling and database query strategies, translate just fine between languages. But there is always a learning curve for a new platform, and sometimes it can be quite nasty. The worst case is that the project must be thrown out because the architure is too wrong to refactor.
I like to learn a new language while working on a project, because a real project will usually force me to learn aspects of the language that I might otherwise skip. One of the first things I like to to is read code in that language, and jump in. I find resources (such as books and various internet sites) to help as I go along.
Then, after I've been working on it for a while, I like to read (or re-read) books or other resources on the language. By this time I have some knowledge, so this will help solidify some things and also point out areas where I am flat-out wrong in my understanding. For instance, I can see that I was making incorrect assumptions about similarities between languages.
This also applies to tools -- after using a tool for a while and learning the basics, reading (or skimming) the documentation can teach me a lot.
In my opinion, you should try to avoid that. I know, most of the times you can't but in any case try not to mix the new language with the old one, and never add to the mixture old habits, practices and patterns.
Always try to find resources that will help you get through the new language in the way the language works, not in the way other languages do; that will never have a happy ending, and if it does it will be very hard to modify it to the right way.
Cheers.
Yes I have.
I mean, is there another way? The only language I ever learned that was not on a project was ABC basic, which was what you used on my first computer.
I would recommend if you start with a certain language, stick with it. I only say that because many times in the past I tried more and more different ones, and the one I started out with was the best :D
Everytime I have/want to learn a new language, I force myself to find something to code.
But to be sure I did it well, I always want to be able to check my code and what it ouputs.
To do so, I just try to do the same kind of stuff with languages I know and to compare the outputs. For that, I created a little project (hosted on Github) with an exercise sheet and the correction for every language I learnt. It's a good way to learn in my opinion because it gives you a real little project.
Just a question that came up from time to time at my old job when we were considering fleshing out our development staff with additional bodies. Does it really matter, if you are a .NET development house, if your developers all code in one language vs another.
I probably started out like alot of the 4million other folks there with Visual Basic way back when, and then migrated to VB.NET. Another developer we had at the time came from a C background and migrated over to C#.NET. Basically he was able to code very quickly in his native language and I was able to do so in mine and since our projects did not really overlap there was no issue until our boss basically said we need to switch to C#... for no other reason than standardization.
So I guess the 'subjective' part of the question is, is it better to sacrifice productivity for consistency? Now I should quantify this in saying we were a SMALL shop, less than 5 developers and given how most of our project plans were done on cocktail napkins its not like we were going for 6-Sigma anytime soon so it was not like 'standards' were a hard and fast rule.
Thanks.
C# is definitely becoming the preferred avenue for Microsoft and it would make sense to choose a language that all developers to use simply based on the fact that if developers move between tasks, having the projects in a uniform language (not to mention coding conventions) will make the maintenance on those projects much easier for everyone involved.
If it helps, I recently wrote an article on my blog looking back at my decision to standardize our development shop on VB.NET over C# and how well my various assumptions have held up and things hindsight has shown me.
Here's a link: "A Manager’s Retrospective on the C# versus VB.NET decision"
As to whether you should standardize the whole shop on one language. I'd say there are definite benefits. The most obvious one is that switching back and forth when you work on different projects is going to incur some mental overhead to re-acclimate yourself each time. Granted, it is going to be less if you have to do it frequently, but to justify the extra complexity there would have to be some offsetting benefit.
Ultimately my advice is to standardize on one or the other based on the following criteria:
(1) If you have a large VB code-base there is a good argument for standardizing on VB.NET.
(2) If everything else is equal, I'd lean towards C# for a number of reasons mentioned in the above article.
(3) Carefully take into account your current team's preferences and the general consensus among developers in your market that you would try to recruit. Language choice is a big deal for morale and hiring.
I think it makes sense to pick one and get everyone on it. The sacrifice in productivity will be brief, competent developers will migrate quickly.
Some advantages:
your last VB developer and the team get downsized...uh oh.
one of the developers quits and you have to take over their code
etc.
I'd say go for whatever works. VB.NET and C# use all the same underlying framework so you should be able to read each others code and with a little googling you should be able to modify it too.
I'd say go for productivity.. ultimately is the customer going to care if it's written in VB.NET or C#?? But saying that you have to think about maintanability.
So I guess the 'subjective' part of
the question is, is it better to
sacrifice productivity for
consistency?
Of course not. What good is consistency, by itself? Ultimately the goal of consistency is productivity. With that in mind, I would suggest that, long term, having everyone code in one language would be the best way to go...in general over the long haul, a lot more time is spent modifying and maintaining code than in writing it, and I would think that having people spend the ramp up time once would be better than having to switch back and forth all the time.
our boss basically said we need to
switch to C#... for no other reason
than standardization. (...) So I guess
the 'subjective' part of the question
is, is it better to sacrifice
productivity for consistency?
Of course not. The only question is what value this 'consistency' has in terms of future productivity, because productivity is all that matters. 'Consistency' by itself is not a business value. It may only help you to achieve more productivity in the future.
Several factors must be balanced:
(+) Tomorrow people will have to maintain only one language, the most popular .Net language: C#. (See Note 1)
(-) Today you must learn C#, which is a cost for your company, unless you do it for free in your weekends. Of course this is a (-) in terms of cost. Learning C# is good by itself, it just has a cost.
(-) Today after learning C#, you or someone else must switch one project from Visual Basic .Net to C#. That has a cost, depending on the LOC count of the project. Also, errors might be introduced, so you need to rerun your unit tests, go over all the failures and work them out. Also, you need to repeat some integration testing, to guarantee that everything works well.
You can't tell what the outcome of the balance is with this information. But you don't have to tell, anyway, since your boss presumably has better information and has already taken the decision. All that you need to do is to actually do it.
Note 1: However, this reasoning is dangerously close to "the world would be a better place if VB.NET didn't exist", which may be too strong a statement. VB.NET, or a mix of both languages, might be a good option in some scenarios.
We're still a mixed language group where I work; however, mixed with a purpose. Nearly all hardware related projects are done in C++ (not assembly, I know :() and all nearly all windows applications are done in C#.
Considering C# popularity and ease, I'd say it's in a company's interest to move to it for when they get new, greener employees.
How do you see yourself as shop?
VB.NET is strong in markets that directly lean on Office, maybe client apps too, while C# is particularly strong in serverside and larger applications.
Maybe it is not about following your or his choice, but make a choice to align with the nature of the shop.
It is important to stick to a singular language choice, if possible. Obviously, if you are writing unmanaged C++, or have some other similar scenario, there would be notable exceptions. Many people have hit on the efficiency of homogeneous language choices, once you have ramped up. Most of the developers I know will run into an efficiency issue when switching languages, even if they know it inside and out. After coding in C# for a couple of months, if I have to go back to VB.NET to maintain something, there is a good day where I have to consciously think about things that are normally automatic. They are simple things, like using vs. Imports, type conversion, etc. It isn't that you forget how it works, but that your mind wants to do something the way you have been doing it for an extended period. A lot like the old parlor trick of pushing your arms out against a door frame for a minute and then resting them at your side. They want to go back up, because that is the signal that your brain is used to sending.
Another very important takeaway, is that this efficiency factor is important in code reviews, as well. If you are working in VB.NET and have to review C#, you are going to have the same stumbling blocks. Sure, you understand the code, but your rate or accuracy in analyzing the code will not be the same as it would be if it was in the same language you are currently using.
There are some additional minor points. Some tooling is geared towards one language over another. For example, Resharper works for both VB.NET and C#, but it provides a larger set of refactorings if you are using C#. Also, if someone in your organization maintains a company coding standard, it makes changes to those standards half as complex, if only a single language needs to be addressed.
I think this also goes a long with coding style standards. Is there really a reason why a development team chooses to go with 3 spaces for tabs rather than 4? Not really there is no technical or business advantage to this decision other than uniformity and making everyone's code look the same so when I switch between files my brain doesn't have to adjust to the new formatting.
Same thing applies here with the uniformity for C# and VB.net. There is no technical or business advantage for taking one over the other (NOTE: I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find something really obscure). But having everyone's code uniform helps when moving from project to project so people don't have to switch gears from thinking in C# to thinking in VB.net.
One of the advantages of using the .Net platform for development is the fact that you have the ability to develop in the language that is best able to express you solution to the problem at hand.
An arbitrary rule IMO should not prevent you from using F# or a DLR language when those languages would be a more natural fit than an imperative language like C# or VB.Net.
It's a harder decision to make with VB.Net vs. C# because the languages are so similar but If you need to do a lot of work with XML then VB.Net's XML literals may help make the code clearer, conversely C#s terse syntax and support for anonymous methods may make your intent clearer.
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Question
As stated, have you any tips to help grok / understand / get-your-head-around declarative programming languages?
Or is it simply a case that you’ve to immerse yourself in the language and it’s syntax, until it seeps in, until you get that golden moment where you Get It. This isn’t really an option as I can no longer lock myself in a room for days on end, poring over half a dozen different books on the subject matter (responsibilities being what they are and all)
So, any tips or tricks that helped you when you tackled declarative languages, any insights to pass on?
P.S. I’ll personally upvote the first answer that says “Shutup and put in the work”.
Background
I was 13 years old I when I first started wring code (basic, on my sisters Oric-1).
Since then I’ve worked with many new concepts and many different languages, taking all in my stride, me taking the upper hand quickly enough. Object Orientation? Not a bother. Event driven paradigms? Smoke me a kipper, I’ll be back for breakfast.
Owl, Mfc, ActiveX, Vb3, 4, 5 & 6, VB.Net, Pascal, Delphi, C, C++ & C#. None have stood in my way, at least not for very long.
However recently my perfect score has taken a bit of a battering.
A couple of weeks ago I threw myself into Xaml, and folks, I’m more sinking than swimming.
I think my main problem is that it’s declarative. All my other programming skills are procedural. I’ve hit this block before with MSBuild, I can copy examples of how to get MSBuild things working, but would be lost putting something together from scratch.
Back to Xaml, currently I’m going insane trying to wire triggers to properties and get the effect’s I need.
I may post my specific Xaml question here soon enough. For now I’m asking this general “declarative programming” question.
P.S. No, I'm not actually this cocky. Yes, I stumbled like hell the first time I hit OO and the first time I'd to write an event driven UI (VB3 on Windows 3.11).
Edit
It's starting to sink in, the tenacity that got me this far in this field is paying off, it just takes so much fracking time!
. . . I think I'm getting too old for this stuff . . . :)
I had to teach XSL (or XSLT, as you wish) a bunch at the beginning of the century :), and it's a different world, really. That, however, is the basis for the paradigm-shift: you have to realize that declarative languages really are different. The most important advice I have is to keep studying other people's solutions, put the work in, and really try to stop thinking in FLOW. The worst thing is that, in XSL, there is an "if" and an "else," but usually there's another way to do things.
Unlike learning OO, in XSL (or any declarative language, I suppose) you will not manage to do what you're trying to do unless you do it declaratively.
So the answer is in part, "shut up and do the work" as you suggest, but the more important point is to realize that a lot of the work is getting your head around the paradigm shift. So the real answer is, "keep your eyes peeled for the paradigm shift." You have to stop thinking in flow and start thinking in terms of rules that can fire in any order... if they're done right, it doesn't matter when they fire. When you are finally thinking in rules instead of WHEN stuff happens, you're beginning to grok the shift.
Find some examples, with explanations of the "why", from someone who really knows the language. It's learning the patterns and idioms that makes a difference.
I suspect you're trying to do imperative things in declarative land, which means you think in terms of steps. Write the dataflow down in terms of required inputs + stateless function of those inputs and see if that helps.
Try a functional or functionalesqe language like ML or Scheme.
I don't know what your specific problems with Xaml are (and I haven't used it myself) , but I've found that when using XML based technologies like XSLT, a little LISP or Scheme experience can go a long way. You might want to look at playing with the excellent scheme system available free from http://www.plt-scheme.org.
I can see where this may be blowing your mind. All those languages you list are indeed quite similar (procedural).
Once you get this down, I highly encourage you to learn a functional language as well. You may also find it tough going, but learning it will help your general coding skills greatly. You'll have a whole new bag of tricks (even in procedural languages), and you will never be afraid of recursion again.
Consider your favorite “programmer ignorance” pet peeve. The first code snippet is obviously procedural. In the second snippet you make a declarative statement that for the percentage to be valid it has to be between 0 and 100.
So i'd guess you'll have no trouble grokking declarative programming languages as long as you work on it hard enough... there is no royal road to geometry
Like Binary Worrier, I had a long history with things like C, C++, MFC, etc and have been coming up to speed on XAML, WPF, and C#. I had a side trip through HTML, Javascript, and XSLT which I think helped a great deal in preparing me for XAML.
The basic idea behind XAML is fairly straightforward - it's all about what you show, not what you do. The hard part with XAML is that there is just a ton of implementation details to learn and you wind up learning them all at the same time in order to be able to get much of anything done.
I could probably be more helpful if the question was more specific.
"Programming is about giving a computer a sequence of instructions."
Most programmers react with equanimity to this statement. It's almost like... "duh?"
But the belief in this statement is what causes people to have trouble understanding other programming paradigms. It's not true, and hasn't been for a very long time. To arrive at a better understanding of programming, many may benefit from thinking on why this statement is false.
Even if you programmed in pure assembly, modern processors would rearrange your instructions, perform branch prediction, and attempt to execute multiple potentially codependent instructions at the same time. In this way they think in terms of logical dependencies, not sequences. The sequence metaphor is the false notion that an instruction logically depends on everything that preceded it. If this were true, the best way to reason about programs would be to examine the control flow. But it is not true.
It's not just declarative programming that doesn't fit with this metaphor, but also parallel and asynchronous programming.
I find the easiest way to "grok" a language is simply to start using it exclusively for all your coding. With a completely new language I would say for me the learning curve is approximately 2 weeks of coding about 4-5 hours a day. After that point it suddenly "clicks" and you can start relying less on manuals and docs.
I took a class in college (Programming Languages). It pretty much felt like I was repeatedly slamming my head against a brick wall, but about 3/4 of the way through the class, I realized the wall wasn't there anymore; I had been beating my head against nothing for a few weeks. It was a pretty surreal feeling.
I think any other way won't have the same charm. Read Godel, Escher, Bach; listen to a lot of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer and Kaikhosru Sorabji; smoke some ganja, and put in the time.
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Closed 10 years ago.
I think I'm going a little crazy.
Right now, I'm working with the following languages (I was just doing a mental inventory):
C++ - our game engine
Assembler - low level debugging and a few co-processor specific routines
Lua - our game engine scripting language
HLSL - for shaders
Python - our build system and utility tools
Objective C/C++ - game engine platform code for Mac and iPhone
C# - A few tools developed in our overseas office
ExtendScript - Photoshop exporting tools
ActionScript - UI scripting
VBScript - some spreadsheet related stuff
PHP - some web related stuff
SQL - some web and tool related stuff
On top of this are the plethora of API's that often have many different ways of doing the same thing: std library, boost, .NET, wxWidgets, Cocoa, Carbon, native script libraries for Python, Lua, etc, OpenGL, Direct3d, GDI, Aqua, augh!
I find myself inadvertently conflating languages and api's, not realizing what I'm doing until I get syntax errors. I feel like I can't possibly keep up with it, and I can't possibly be proficient in all of these areas. Especially outside the realm of C++ and Python, I find myself programming more by looking at manuals that from memory.
Do you have a similar problem? Ideas for compartmentalizing so you're more efficient? Deciding where you want to stay proficient? Organizational tips? Good ways to remember when you switch from Lua to C++ you need to start using semi-colons again? Rants on how complicated we programmers have made things for ourselves?
Any ideas welcome!
A few things I do to keep them seperate...
Use different IDE's / editors / colour schemes for different languages. You start to associate the language with the environment, and when you switch windows your brain gets a big visual cue that it needs to context switch to the new language.
Try to limit context switching to 2 or 3 active languages at a time. Close down any other IDEs or editor windows when you're done with them.
Try to forget the "fire and forget" stuff. A lot of the languages you've listed seem like they wouldn't be things you're actively coding in every day, but rather tools you use to automate daily tasks. As much as possible try to have a "tool day" where you do any work you need to on those tools. Seperate it as much as possible from your day to day coding, so your brain doesn't have to worry about page swapping that stuff in and out all the time.
-- edit cue, not queue.
For any language I plan on learning thoroughly, I will write my own syntax highlighting in Vim. I try and make the colouring strict so that the colouring picks up obvious mistakes as I type them. This helps me remember where to put certain syntax items in case I forget (so // doesn't look like a comment in python, and I always have trouble remembering where to put * or [] in C). If I can't remember a function or method name, I guess it, and if it shows up in colour I know I've spelled it correctly. I also try and choose differing colours so that different languages stand out from each other, it helps my brain remember what language I'm writing in.
I think after a while it comes natural to you. When I was first getting serious about programming I was using a variety of languages - Java and C# especially. I found myself accidentally using certain Java features in C# and the other way around. Luckily for me a lot of their features are identical so it saved me there, but as I moved on this wasn't really a problem.
Try spending a significant amount of time with each language. Sit down and read a good book (or a couple) on each language and get familiar with it. Ask your boss if you can spend most of your time on one section at a time. You will begin to catch more of your mistakes before you make them. For the ones you don't, this is why debuggers were created - a programmer's best friend. I have a terrible memory, and I mean TERRIBLE. You may think it makes programming harder for me but it really doesn't. After using a language for a significant amount of time the functions just seem to come to you.
So try spending more time on each language instead of jumping around and trying to learn them all at once. The information will stick with you better and you will become a lot less flustered and confused when coding time comes around. Try doing things that help keep you focused while programming. If a lot of caffeine helps, go for it! If listening to your favorite music helps, go for it! (for me I can't concentrate whatsoever with the smallest sounds, but everyones different).
Best of luck!
The feature I never get right the first time, when I change from one language to another, is arrays. They always have different syntax, and I end up looking them up every time.
Here is a list of my most used languages and how to implement arrays in them:
//Java:
int[] array1 = new int[5];
int[] array2 = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4};
//C/C++:
int array1[5];
int array2[5] = {0, 1, 2, 3, 4};
//JavaScript:
var array1 = new Array(5);
var array2 = [0, 1, 2, 3, 4];
//PHP:
$array1 = array(5);
$array2 = array(0, 1, 2, 3, 4);
//Python:
array1 = []#According to the comments, we don't care about size!
arary2 = [0, 1, 2, 3, 4]; #Could use range to create a sequence
One of the things you find in web-dev is that almost by definition if you want to be capable of end-to-end work you need to be capable of at least 5 languages (SQL, mid tier, html, css, js), and every slightly different project is going to add something else (jQuery? Flash? XML?).
I think you just sort of have to grok this naturally, but two things really help:
learn concepts, not syntax and lean on IDEs and google when you need to (another reason language specific interview questions make no sense), because these are applicable to anything and it's easier to see the domain specific components sliding in and out than to think you're learning something entirely different
where possible stick to the similar families of language syntax - I know I personally find C# considerably more natural to use than PHP because it's sharing syntax with JS and Actionscript, XML because of it's familiarity for me from HTML
I agree: there are too many languages and APIs out there.
If you were a customer, and languages and APIs were just like T-shirts, you would be happy that you have the biggest choice possible. Hey, if you want a statically typed language which gives you a lot of flexibility and high performance, go with C++! If you want something easier to maintain, go with Java or Python or Ruby or you name it. You have the choice. You should be happy.
But the truth is, you're more like a guy building a house, and languages and APIs are like screws and bolts: they're your tools. If you have 1000 different types of screws and bolts, each with different characteristics and limitations, then your job will be a nightmare. You'd be more focused on your tools than on the house you're building (does this ring a bell?). Of course, I know there is no one-size-fits-all bolt, but you certainly could imagine life with just a few different types of bolts, couldn't you?
I think the problem lies in the fact that guys in the building industry love the houses they're building... and we developers just love the bolts. I'm no exception: I just love to learn a new language or framework. Bolts are so beautiful. ;-)
I personally have almost no hope of forward progress without my half-dozen API and language reference bookmarks sitting right on my desktop.
I feel your pain, bro.
I don't know, though; I think multiple-language proficiency (or at least multiple-language-general-awareness) is just sort of the world we're livin' in, and something we're just gonna have get used to. Somehow. Alas, I don't know what the secret is to keeping sane, though. (Although for me, I can say that beer definitely helps.)
Some folks on my team (I work at Real, too, incidentally) develop in C++ on Windows, for Windows, and that's it -- that's all they've been doing for years, and they're great at it, they love it, and they're totally happy doing that one thing really well.
Me, on the other hand -- I've never been able to settle into any one language, and I don't think I'd want to; generally speaking, I've learned about a language a year for the past ten years, some of them unlike any others (ColdFusion, anyone?), and these days, I do almost all of my work in Flash, Flex and ActionScript. If you'd told me two years ago what I'd be doing today, I'm sure I'd have laughed. Keeping up is exhausting sometimes (I posted similarly a while back -- a few good answers from other folks in there, too), but I can't seem to resist checking out the new stuff, keeping current, etc.
One thing I will say, though, following on from John T's and Scott's comments: books are the only way to go. Books, at least for me, along with reading lots of (good -- not bad) code, are the best way to let a language seep gradually and cohesively into your brain, and that just takes time. Like I said, I'm almost two years now with Flash, and I'm only now beginning to feel like I can speak ActionScript fluently. All told, I've probably got ten AS books on my desk, though, and there are two more downstairs waiting for me once I'm finished with the one I'm reading now.
It never ends. Woohoo!
PS: VBScript, though? Ugh, that's terrible. Sorry, man. ;)
One of the advantages of my job is that I am able to switch from one project to another, with different languages, operating systems, coding rules, QA requirements, ...
The only way I found to stay on top is not to know every bit of every language, but to know what are the reference docs and where I can find them. For instance, I use the man command for perl, TCL/TK and various flavours of Unix and Linux, the online Language Reference Manual for Ada, Apple Developer resources for Objective-C and Cocoa.
Any project scheduling you can do to minimize the context switches could be helpful. Can you put off the web development until the C++ code is stable?
Another thing I try to do is have a good "worked example" of a new language. Try and find small to medium sized samples of the language you're currently using, and keep it handy. I find picking up syntax details from a piece of sample code I'm somewhat familiar with is often quicker than digging the details out of a reference manual.
Humans can't multitask. Period.
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000022.html
If you aren't allowed to let other people do the work because they already have full plates, then get more people hired. If you aren't allowed to get more people hired, then maybe people can at least shift priorities so each person can focus a bit more.
For example: If you're full time on the engine, or at any level of commitment beyond bug fixes, why are you working on game logic? And content tools? And build tools? And web development? If you're not talking about a one year time span, with maybe a separate solid month of concentrating on each, then it sounds like you do all the programming, and everyone else just twiddles their thumbs.
Surely you're the expert for only one of these areas, and not all of them. There's that whole "if you got hit by a bus" thing. If you're that guy, then that is job security for you, but terrible for your company and your sanity.
You could try matching up tools a bit more. Move as many things as you can to Python or .Net, since I assume you can't ditch your core technologies for your games.