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I am working on a new language, targeted for web development, embeding into applications, distributed applications, high-reliability software (but this is for distant future).
Also, it's target to reduce development expenses in long term - more time to write safer code and less support later. And finally, it enforces many things that real teams have to enforce - like one crossplatform IDE, one codestyle, one web framework.
In short, the key syntax/language features are:
Open source, non-restrictive licensing. Surely crossplatform.
Tastes like C++ but simpler, Pythonic syntax with strict & static type checking. Easier to learn, no multiple inheritance and other things which nobody know anyway :-)
LLVM bytecode/compilation backend gives near-C speed.
Is has both garbage collection & explicit object destruction.
Real OS threads, native support of multicore computers. Multithreading is part of language, not a library.
Types have the same width on any platform. int(32), long(64) e.t.c
Built in post and preconditions, asserts, tiny unit tests. You write a method - you can write all these things in 1 place, so you have related things in one place. If you worry that your class sourcecode will be bloated with this - it's IDEs work to hide what you don't need now.
Java-like exception handling (i.e. you have to handle all exceptions)
I guess I'll leave web & cluster features for now...
What you think? Are there any existing similar languages which I missed?
To summarize: You language has no real selling points. It just does what a dozen other languages already did, with syntax and semantics just slightly off, depending on where the programmer comes from. This may be a good thing, as it makes the language easier to adapt, but you also have to convince people to trouble to switch. All this stuff has to be built and debugged and documented again, tools have to be programmed, people have to learn it and convince their pointy-haired bosses to use it, etc. "So it's language X with a few features from Y and nicer syntax? But it won't make my application's code 15% shorter and cleaner, it won't free me from boilerplate X, etc - and it won't work with my IDE." The last one is important. Tools matter. If there are no good tools for a language, few people will shy away, rightfully so.
And finally, it enforces many things that real teams have to enforce - like one crossplatform IDE, one codestyle, one web framework.
Sounds like a downside! How does the language "enforce one X"? How do you convince programmers this coding style is the one true style? Why shouldn't somebody go and replace the dog slow, hardly maintained, severly limited IDE you "enforce" with something better? How could one web framework possibly fit all applications? Programmers rarely like to be forced into X, and they are sometimes right.
Also, you language will have to talk to others. So you have ready-made standard solutions for multithreading and web development in mind? Maybe you should start with a FFI instead. Python can use extensions written in C or C++, use dynamic libraries through ctypes, and with Cython it's amazingly simple to wrap any given C library with a Python interface. Do you have any idea how many important libraries are written in C? Unless your language can use these, people can hardly get (real-world) stuff done with it. Just think of GUI. Most mayor GUI toolkits are C or C++. And Java has hundreds of libraries (the other JVM languages profit much from Java interop) for many many purposes.
Finally, on performance: LLVM can give you native code generation, which is a huge plus (performance-wise, but also because the result is standalone), but the LLVM optimizers are limited, too. Don't expect it to beat C. Especially not hand-tuned C compiled via icc on Intel CPUs ;)
"Are there any existing similar
languages which I missed?"
D? Compared to your features:
The compiler has a dual license - GPL and Artistic
See example code here.
LDC targets LLVM. Support for D version 2 is under development.
Built-in garbage collection or explicit memory management.
core.thread
Types
Unit tests / Pre and Post Contracts
try/catch/finally exception handling plus scope guarantees
Responding to a few of your points individually (I've omitted what I consider either unimportant or good):
targeted for web development
Most people use php. Not because it's the best language available, that's for sure.
embeding into applications
Lua.
distributed applications, high-reliability software (but this is for distant future).
Have you carefully studied Erlang, both its design and its reference implementation?
it enforces many things that real teams have to enforce - like one crossplatform IDE, one codestyle, one web framework.
If your language becomes successful, people will make other IDEs, other code styles, other web frameworks.
Multithreading is part of language, not a library.
Really good languages for multithreading forbid side effects inside threads. Yes, in practice that pretty much means Erlang only.
Types have the same width on any platform. int(32), long(64) e.t.c
Sigh... There's only one reasonable width for integers outside of machine-level languages like C: infinite.
Designing your own language will undoubtedly teach you someting. But designing a good language is like designing a good cryptosystem: lots of amateurs try, but it takes an expert to do it well.
I suggest you read some of Norman Ramsey's answers here on programming language design, starting with this thread.
Given your interest in distributed applications, knowing Erlang is a must. As for sequential programming, the minimum is one imperative language and one functional language (ideally both Lisp/Scheme and Haskell, but F# is a good start). I also recommend knowing at least one high-level language that doesn't have objects, just so you understand that not having objects can often make the programmer's life easier (because objects are complex).
As for what could drive other people to learn your language... Good tools/libraries/frameworks can't hurt (FORTRAN, php), and a big company setting the example can't hurt (Java, C#). Good design doesn't seem to be much of a factor (a ha-ha-only-serious joke has it that what makes a language successful is using {braces} to delimit blocks: C, C++, Java, C#, php)...
What you've given us is a list of features, with no coherent philosophy, or explanation as to how they will work together. None of the features are unique. At best, you're offering incremental improvements over what's already there. I'd expect there's already languages kicking around with what you've said, it's just that they're still fairly obscure, because they didn't make it.
Languages have inertia. People have to learn new languages, and sometimes new tools. They need incentive to do so, and 20% improvement in a few features doesn't cut it.
What you need, at a minimum, is a killer app and a form of elevator pitch. (The "elevator pitch" is what you tell the higher-ups about your project when you're in the elevator with them, in current US business parlance.) You need to have your language be obviously worth learning for some purpose, and you need to be able to tell people why it's worth learning before they think "just another language by somebody who wanted to write a language" and go away.
You need to form a language community. That community needs to have some localization at first: people who work in X big company, people who want to do Y, whatever. Decide on what that community is likely to be, and come up with one big reason to switch and some reasons to believe that your language can deliver what it promises.
No.
Every buzzword you have included in your feature list is an enormous amount of work to be spec'd, implemented, documented, and tested.
How many people will be actively developing the language? I guess the web is full of failed programming language projects. (Same is true for non-mainstream OSes)
Have a look at what .Net/Visual Studio or Java/Eclipse have accomplished. That's 1000s of years of specification, development, tests, documentation, feedback, bug fixes, service packs.
During my last job I heard about somebody who wrote his own programming framework, because it was "better". The resulting program code (both in the framework and in the applications) is certainly unmaintainable once the original programmer quits, or is "hit by a bus", as the saying goes.
As the list sounds like Java++ or Mono++, you'd probably be more successful in engaging in an existing project, even if it won't have your name tag on it.
Perhaps you missed one key term. Performance.
In any case, unless this new language has some really out-of-this-world features(ex: 100% increase in performance over other web development languages), I think it will be yet another fish in the pond.
Currently I'm responsible for maintaining a framework developed/owned by my company. It's a nightmare. Unless there is a mainstream community, working on this full time, it's really an elephant. I do not appreciate my company's decision to develop its own framework(because it's supposed to be "faster") day 'n night.
The language tastes good in my opinion, I don't want use java for a simple website but I would like to have types and things like that. ASP .NET is a problem because of licensing and I can't afford those licenses for a single website... Also features looks good
Remember a lot of operator overloading: I think is the biggest thing that PHP is actually missing. It allows classes to behave much more like basic types :)
When you have something to test I'll love to help you with it! Thanks
Well, if you have to reinvent the wheel, you can go for it :)
I am not going to give you any examples of languages or language features, but I will give you one advice instead:
Supporting framework is what is the most important thing. People will tend to love it or hate it, depending on how easy is to write good code that get job done. Therefore, please do usability test before releasing it. I mean ask several people how they will do certain task and create API accordingly. Then test beta API on other coders and listen carefully to their comments.
Regards and good luck :)
There's always space for another programming language. Apart from getting the design right, I think the biggest problem is coming across as just another wannabe language. So you may want to look at your marketing, you need a big sponsor who can integrate your language into their products, or you need to generate a buzz around it, easiest way is astroturfing. Good luck.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages
NB the names G and G++ aren't taken. Oh and watch out for the patent trolls.
Edit
Oops G / G++ are taken... still there are plenty more letters left.
This sounds more like a "systems" language rather than a "web development language". The major languages in this category (other than C++/C) are D and Go.
My advice to you would be to not start from scratch but examine the possibility of creating tools or libraries for those languages, and seeing just how far you can push them.
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I'm currently faced with a very unusual design problem, and hope that a developer wiser than myself might be able to offer some insight.
Background
Without being too specific, I've been hired by a non-profit organisation to assist with the redevelopment of their legacy, but very valuable (in terms of social value) software. The development team is unlike any I've encountered in my time as a software developer, and is comprised of a small number of developers and a larger group of non-programming domain experts. What makes the arrangement unusual is that the domain experts (lets call them content creators), use custom tooling, some of which is based around a prolog expert system engine, to develop web based software components/forms.
The Problem
The system uses a very awkward postback model to perform logical operations server side and return new forms/results. It is slow, and prone to failure. Simple things, like creating html forms using the existing tooling is much more arduous than it should be. As the demand for a more interactive, and performant experience grows, the software developers are finding increasingly that they have to circumvent the expert system/visual tooling used by the content creators, and write new components by hand in javascript. The content creators feel increasingly that their hands are tied, as they are now unable to contribute new components.
Design approach: Traditional/Typical
I have been advocating for the complete abandonment of the previous model and the adoption of a typical software development process. As mentioned earlier, the project has naturally evolved towards this as the non-programmatic development tooling has become incapable of meeting the needs of the business.
The content creators have a very valuable contribution to make however, and I would like to see them focusing on formally specifying the expected behaviour of the software with tools like Cucumber, instead of being involved in implementation.
Design approach: Non-programmatic
My co-worker, who I respect a great deal and suspect is far more knowledgeable than me, feels that the existing process is fine and that we just need to build better tooling. I can't help but feel however that there is something fundamentally flawed with this approach. I have yet to find one instance, either historical or contemporary where this model of software development has been successful. COBOL was developed with the philosophy of allow business people/domain experts to write applications without the need for a programmer, and to my mind all this did was create a new kind of programmer - the COBOL programmer. If it was possible to develop effective systems allowing non-programmers to create non-trivial applications, surely the demand for programmers would be much lower? The only frameworks that I am aware of that roughly fit this model are SAP's Smart Forms and Microsoft's Dynamix AX - both of which are very domain specific ERP systems.
DSLs, Templating Languages
Something of a compromise between the two concepts would be to implement some kind of DSL as a templating language. I'm not even sure that this would be successful however, as all of the content creators, with one exception, are completely non technical.
I've also considered building a custom IDE based on Visual Studio or Net Beans with graphical/toolbox style tooling.
Thoughts?
Is non-programmatic development a fools errand? Will this always result in something unsatisfactory, requiring hands on development from a programmer?
Many thanks if you've taken the time to read this, and I'd certainly appreciate any feedback.
You say:
Something of a compromise between the
two concepts would be to implement
some kind of DSL as a templating
language. I'm not even sure that this
would be successful however, as all of
the content creators, with one
exception, are completely non
technical.
Honestly, this sounds like exactly the approach I would use. Even "non-technical" users can become proficient (enough) in a simple DSL or templating language to get useful work done.
For example, I do a lot of work with scientific modeling software. Many modelers, while being much more at home with the science than with any form of engineering, have been forced to learn one or more programming languages in order to express their ideas in a way they can use. Heck, as far as I know, Fortran is still a required course in order to get a Meteorology degree, since all the major weather models currently in use are written in Fortran.
As a result, there is a certain community of "scientific programming" which is mostly filled with domain experts with relatively little formal software engineering training, expertise, or even interest. These people are more at home with languages/platforms like Matlab, R, and even Visual Basic (since they can use it to script applications like Excel and ESRI ArcMap). Recently, I've seen Python gaining ground in this space as well, mainly I think because it's relatively easy to learn.
I guess my point is that I see strong parallels between this field and your example. If your domain experts are capable of thinking rigorously about their problems (and this may not be the case, but your question is open-ended enough that it might be) then they are definitely capable of expressing their ideas in an appropriate domain-specific language.
I would start by discussing with the content creators some ideas about how they would like to express their decisions and choices. My guess would be that they would be happy to write "code" (even if you don't have to call it code) to describe what they want. Give them a "debugger" (a tool to interactively explore the consequences of their "code" changes) and some nice "IDE" support application, and I think you'll have a very workable solution.
Think of spreadsheets.
Spreadsheets are a simple system that allows non-technical users to make use of a computer's calculation abilities. In doing so, they have opened up computers to solve a great number of tasks which normally would have required custom software developed to solve them. So, yes non-programmatic software development is possible.
On the other hand, look at spreadsheets. Despite their calculational abilities you really would not want as a programmer to have to develop software with them. In the end, many of the techniques that make programming languages better for programmers make them worse for the general population. The ability to define a function, for example, makes a programmer's life much easier, but I think would confuse most others.
Additionally, past a certain point of complexity trying to use a spreadsheet would be a real pain. The spreadsheet works well within the realm for which it was designed. Once you stray too far out that, its just not workable. And again, its the very tools programmers use to deal with complexity which will prevent a system being both widely usable and sufficiently powerful.
I think that for any given problem area, you could develop a system that allows the experts to specify a solution. It will be much harder to develop that system then to solve the problem in the first place. However, if you repeatedly have similiar problems which the experts can develop solutions for, then it might be worthwhile.
I think development by non-developers is doomed to failure. It's difficult enough when developers try it. What's the going failure rate? 50% or higher?
My advice would be to either buy the closest commercial product you can find or hire somebody to help you develop a custom solution with your non-developer maintenance characteristics in mind.
Being a developer means keeping a million details in mind at once and caring about details like version control, deployment, testing, etc. Most people who don't care about those things quickly tire of the complexity.
By all means involve the domain experts. But don't saddle them with development and maintenance as well.
You could be putting your organization at risk with a poorly done solution. If it's important, do it right.
I don't believe any extensive non-programmer solution is going to work. Programming is more than language, it's knowing how to do things reasonably. Something designed to be non-programmer friendly will still almost certainly contain all the pitfalls a programmer knows to avoid even if it's expressed in English or a GUI.
I think what's needed in a case like this is to have the content creators worry about making content and an actual programmer translate that into reasonable computer code.
I have worked with two ERP systems that were meant for non-programmers and in both cases you could make just about every mistake in the book with them.
... Simple things, like creating html forms using the existing tooling is much more arduous than it should be...
More arduous for whom? You're taking a development model that works (however badly) for the non-programming content creators, and because something is arduous for someone you propose to replace that with a model where the content creators are left out in the cold entirely? Sounds crazy to me.
If your content creators can learn custom tooling built around a Prolog rules engine, then they have shown they can learn enough formalism to contribute to the project. If you think other aspects of the development need to be changed, I see only two honorable choices:
Implement the existing formalism ("custom tooling") using the new technology that you think will make things better in other ways. The content creators contribute exactly as they do now.
Design and implement a domain-specific language that handles the impedance mismatch between what your content creators know and can do and the way you and other developers think the work should be done.
Your scenario is a classic case where a domain-specific language is appropriate. But language design is not easy, especially when combined with serious usability questions. If you are lucky you will be able to hire someone to help you who is expert in both language design and usability. But if you are nonprofit, you probably don't have the budget. In this case one possibility is to look for help from another nonprofit—a nearby university, if you have one.
I'd advise you to read this article before attempting to scrap the whole system. I look at it this way. What changed to prompt the redevelopment? Your domain experts haven't forgotten how to use the original system, so you already have some competent "COBOL programmers" for your domain. From your description, it sounds like mostly the performance requirements have changed, and possibly a greater need for web forms.
Therefore, the desired solution isn't to change the responsibilities of the domain experts, it's to increase the performance and make it easier to create web forms. You have the advantage of an existing code base showing exactly what your domain experts are capable of. It would be a real shame not to use it.
I realize Prolog isn't exactly the hottest language around, but there are faster and slower implementations. Some implementations are designed mostly for programmer interactivity and are dynamically interpreted. Some implementations create optimized compiled native code. There are also complex logical programming techniques like memoization that can be used to enhance performance, but probably no one learns them in school anymore. A flow where content creators focus on creating new content and developers focus on optimization could be very workable. Also, Prolog is ideally suited for the model layer, but not so much for the view layer. Moving more of your view layer to a different technology could really pay off.
In general though, 2 thoughts:
You cannot reduce life to algorithms. Everything we know (philosophically, scientifically) and experience demonstrates this. (Sorry, Dr. Minsky).
That said, a Domain-Specific tool that allows non-programmers to express a finite language is definitely doable as several people have given examples. Another example of this type of system is Mathematica and especially Simulink which are used very successfuly over a range of applications. However, the failure of Expert Systems, Fuzzy logic, and Japan's Fifth Generation computer project of the 80's to take-off demonstrate the difficulty in doing this.
Labview is a very successful none programatic programming environment.
What an interesting problem.
I would have to ultimately agree with you, and disagree with your colleague.
The philosophy and approach of Domain Driven Development/Design exists exactly for your purposes, in that it puts paramount importance on the specific knowledge of the experienced domain experts, and on communicating that knowledge to talented software developers.
See, in your issue, there are two distinct things. The domain, and the software. The domain should be understood and specified first and foremost without software development in mind.
And then the transformation to software happens between the communication between domain experts and programmers.
I think trying to build "programming" tools for domain experts is a waste of time.
In Domain Driven Development your domain experts will continue to be important, and you'll end up with better software.
In your colleague's approach you're trying to replace programmers with tool.... maybe in the future, like, start trek future, that will be possible, but today I don't think so.
I am currently struggling with a similar problem in trying to enable healthcare providers to write rules for workflows, which isn't easy because they aren't programmers. You're a programmer not because you went to programming school -- you're a programmer because you think like a programmer. Fortunately, most hospitals have some anesthesiologist or biomedical engineer who thinks like a programmer and can manage to program. The key is to give the non-programmers-who-think-like-programmers a language that they can learn and master.
In my case, I want doctors to be able to formulate simple rules, such as: "If a patient's temperature gets too low, send their doctor a text message". Of course it's more complicated than that because the definition of "too low" depends on the age of the patient, a patient may have many doctors, and so on, but a smart doctor will be able to figure out those rules. The real issue is that the temperature sensor will often fall off the patient and read ambient temperature, meaning that the rule is useless unless you can figure out how to determine that the thermometer is actually reading the patient's temperature.
The big problem I have is that, while it's relatively easy to create a DSL so that doctors can express IF [temperature] [less-than] [lookup-table [age]] THEN [send-text-message], it's much harder to create one that can express all the different heuristics you might need to try before coming up with the right way to make sure the reading is valid.
In your case, you may want to consider how VB became popular: It has a form drawing tool that anybody can easily use to draw forms and set properties on form items. Since not everything can be specified by form properties and data binding, there's a code-behind mode that lets you do complex logic. But to make the tool accessible to beginning programmers, the language is BASIC, so users didn't have to learn about pointers, memory allocation, or data structures.
While you probably wouldn't want to give your users VB, you might consider a hybrid approach. You would have one "language" (it could be graphical, like VB's form designer or Labview) where inexperienced users can easily do the simple stuff, and another language to enable expert users to do the complicated stuff.
I had this as a comment previously but I figured it deserved more merit.
There are definitely a number of successful 'non-programmatic' tools around, off hand I can think of Labview, VPL and graph based (edit: I just noticed this link has more far more than just shaders on it) shaders which are prevalent in 3D applications.
Having said that, I don't know of any which are suited to web based dev (which appears to be your case).
I dout very much the investment on developing such tools would be worth it (unless maybe you could move to sell it as a product as well).
I agree with you - non-technical people will not be able to program anything non-trivial.
Some products try to create what's basically a really simple programming language. The problem is that programming is an aptitude as well as a skill. It takes a certain kind of mindset to think in the sort of logic used by computers, which just can't be abstracted away by any programming language (at least not without without making assumptions that it can't safely make).
I've seen this in action with business people trying to construct workflows in MS Dynamics CRM. Even though the product was clearly intended to allow them to do it without a programmer they just couldn't figure out how to make a loop or an if-else condition work, no matter how "friendly" the UI tried to make it. I watched in amazement as they struggled with something that seemed completely self-obvious to me. After a full day (!) of this they managed to produce a couple of very basic workflows that worked in some cases, but didn't handle edge cases like missing values or invalid data. It was basically a complete waste of time.
Granted, Dynamics CRM isn't exactly the epitome of user-friendliness, but I saw enough to convince me that this is, indeed, a fool's errand.
Now, if your users are not programmers, but still technical people they might be able to learn programming, but that's another story - they've really become "new programmers" rather than "non-programmers" then.
This is a pretty philosophical topic and difficult to answer for every case, but in general...
Is non-programmatic development a fools errand?
Outside of a very narrow scope, yes. Major software vendors have invested billions over the years in creating various packages to try to let non-technical users create & define workflows and processes with limited success. Your best bet is to take advantage of what has been done in that space rather than trying to re-invent it.
Edit:
Sharepoint, InfoPath, some SAP stuff are the examples I'm talking about. As I said above, "a very narrow scope". It's possible to let non-programmers create workflows, complex forms, some domain processes, but that's it. Anything more general-purpose is simply trying to make non-programmers into programmers by giving them very crude tools.
Non programatic software development IS feasable, as long as you are realistic about what non-developers can reasonaby achieve - its all about a compromise between capability and ease of use.
The key is to break the requirements down cleanly into things that the domain experts need to be able to do, and spend time implementing those features in a foolproof way - The classic mistake is to try to let the system to do too much.
For example suppose you want domain experts to be able to create a form with a masked text input:
Most developers will look at that requirement and create a fancy control which accepts some sort of regular expression and lets the domain expert do anything.
This is the classic developer way of looking at things, however it's likely that your domain expert does not understand regular expressions and the developer has missed the point of the reqirement which was for the domain expert to be able to create this form.
A better solution might have been to create a control that can be confgiured to mask either Email addresses or telephone numbers.
Yes this control is far less capable than the first control, and yes the domain experts have to ask developers to extend it when they want to be able to mask to car registration numbers, however the domain experts are able to use it.
It seems that the problem is of organizational nature and cannot be solved by technical means alone.
The root is that content creators are completely non-technical, yet have to perform inherently technical tasks of designing forms and writing Prolog rules. Various designers and DSLs can alleviate their problems, but never solve them.
Either reorganize system and processes so knowledge carriers actually enter knowledge - nothing else; or train content creators to perform necessary development with existing tools or may be DSLs.
Non-programmatic development can save from low-level chores, but striving to set up system once and let users indefinitely and unrestrictedly expand it is certainly a fools errands.
Computer games companies operate like this all the time, so far as I can tell: a few programmers and a lot of content creators who need to be able to control logic as well (like level designers).
It's also probably a healthy discipline to be able to separate your code from the data and rules driving it if you can.
I'm therefore with your colleague, but of course the specifics may not make this general solution appropriate!
Using the right language for the job is the key - this is the comment I read in SO and I also belive thats the right thing to do. Because of this we ended up using different languages for different parts of the project - like perl, VBA(Excel Macros), C# etc. We have three to four languages currently in use inside the project. Using the right language for the job has made it immensly more easy to do automate a job, but of late people are complaining that any new person who has to take over the project will have to learn so many different languages to get started. Also it is difficult to find such kind of person. Please note that this is a one to two person working on the project maximum at a given point of time. I would like to know if the method we are following is right or should we converge to single language and try to use it across all the job even though another language might be better suited for it. Your experenece related to this would also help.
Languages used and their purpose:
Perl - Processing large text file(log files)
C# with Silverlight for web based reporting.
LabVIEW for automation
Excel macros for processing data in excel sheets, generating graphs and exporting to powerpoint.
I'd say you are doing it right. Almost all the projects I've ever worked on have used multiple languages, without any problems. I think you may be overestimating the difficulty people have picking up new languages, particularly if they all use the same paradigm. If your project were using Haskell, Smalltalk, C++ and assembler, you might have difficulties, I must admit :-)
Using a variety languages vs maintainability is simply another design decision with cost-vs-benefits trade-offs that, like any design decision, need to considered carefully. While I like using the "absolute best" tool for the task (whatever "absolute best" means), I wouldn't necessarily use it without considering other factors such as:
do we have sufficient skill and experience to implement successfully
will we be able to find the necessary resources to maintain it
do we already use the language/tech in our system
does the increase in complexity to the overall system (e.g. integration issues, the impact on build automation) outweigh the benefits of using the "absolute best" language
is there another language that we already use and have experience in that is usable in lieu of the "absolute best" language
I worked a system with around a dozen engineers that used C++, Java, SQL, TCL, C, shell scripts, and just a touch of Perl. I was proud that we used the "best language" where they made sense, but, in one case, using the "best language" (TCL) was a mistake - not because it was TCL - but rather because we failed to observe the full costs-vs-benefits of the choice:*
we had only 1 engineer deeply familiar with TCL - the original engineer who refused to use anything but TCL for a particular target component - and then that engineer left the project
this target component was the only part of the system to use TCL and it was small relative to the other components in the system
the component could have been also implemented in another language we already used that we had plenty of experience in (C or C++) with some extra effort
the component appeared deceptively simple, but in reality had subtle corner cases that bit us in production (not something we could have known then, but always something to consider as a possibility later)
we had to implement special changes to the nightly build because the TCL compiler (yes, we compiled the TCL code into an executable) wouldn't work unless it could first throw its logo up on the screen - a screen which wasn't available during a cron-initiated automated nightly build. (We resorted to using xvfb to satisfy it.)
when bugs turned up, we had difficult time finding engineers who wanted to work on it
when problems with this component cropped up only after sustained load in the field, we lacked the experience and deep understanding of the TCL execution engine to easily debug it in the field
finally, the maintenance and sustainment team, which is a much smaller team with fewer resources than the main development team, had one more language that they needed training and experience in just to support this relatively small component
Although there were a number of things we could have done to head-off some of the issues we hit down the road (e.g. put more emphasis on getting TCL experience earlier, running better tests to detect the issues earlier, etc), my point is that the overall cost-vs-benefit didn't justify using TCL to code that single component. Again, it was not a mistake to use TCL because it was TCL (TCL is a fine language), but rather it was a mistake because we failed to give full consideration to the cost-vs-benefits.
As a Software Engineer it's your job to learn new languages if you need to. I would say you should go with the right tool for the job.
It's like sweeping the floor with an octopus. Yeah, it gets the job done... kind of... but it's probably not the best tool for the job. You're better off using a mop.
Another option is to create positions geared towards working in specific languages. So you can have a C# developer, a Perl developer, and a VBA developer who will only work with that language. It's a bit more overhead, but it is a workable solution.
Any modern software project of any scope -- even if it's a one-person job -- requires more than one language. For instance, a web project usually requires Javascript, a backend language, and a DB query language (though any of these might be created by the backend language). That said, there's a threshold that is easily reached, and then it would be very hard to find new developers to take over projects. What's the limit? Three languages? Four? Let's say: five is too many, but one would be too few for any reasonably complex project.
Using the right language for the right job is definitely appropriate - I am mainly a web programmer, and I need to know server-side programming (Rails, PHP + others), SQL, Javascript, jQuery, HTML & CSS (not programming languages strictly, but complex things I need to know) - it would be impossible for me to do all of that in a single language or technology.
If you have a team of smart developers, picking up new languages will not be a problem for them. In fact they probably will be eager to do so. Just make sure they are given adequate time (and mentoring) to learn the new language.
Sure, there will be a learning curve to implementing production code if there is a new language to learn, but you will have a stronger team member for it.
If you have developers in your teams who strongly resist learning new languages, unless there is a very good reason (e.g they are justifiably adamant that they are being asked to used a different language when it is not appropriate to do so) - then they are not the sort of developers I'd want in my teams.
And don't bother trying to hire people who know all the languages you use. Hire smart programmers (who probably know at least one language you use) - they should pick up the other languages just fine.
I would be of the opinion, that if I a programmer on my team wanted to introduce a second (or third) language into a project, that there better be VERY VERY good reason to do so; as a project manager I would need to be convinced that the cost of doing so, more than offset the problems. And it would take a lot of convincing.
Splitting up project into multiple languages makes it very expensive to hire the right person(s) to take over that project when it needs maintenance. For small and medium shops it could be a huge obstacle.
Edit: I am not talking about using javascript and c# on the same project, I am talking about using C# for most of the code, F# for a few parts and then VB or C++ for others - there would need to be a compelling reason.
KISS: 'Keep it simple stupid' is a good axiom to follow in most cases.
EDIT: I am not completely opposed to adding languages, but the burden of proof is on the person to who wants to do it. KISS (to me) applies to not only getting the project/product done and shipped, but also must take into account the lifetime maint. and support requirements. Lots of languages come and go, and programmers are attracted to new languages like a moth to a light. Most projects I have worked on, I still oversee and/or support 5 or 10 years later - last thing I want to see is some long forgotten and/or orphaned language responsible for some key part of an application I need to support.
My experience using C++ and Lua was that I wrote more glue than actual operational code and for dubious benefit.
I'd start by saying the issue is whether you are using the right paradigm for the job?
Suppose you know how to do object oriented programming in C#. I don't think the leap to Java is all that great . Although you'd have to familiarize yourself with libraries and syntax, the idea is pretty similar.
If you have procedural parts to your project, such as parsing files and various data transformations, your Perl/Excel Macros seem pretty similar.
But to address your issues, I'd say above all, you'll need clarity in code. Since your staff are using several languages, they won't be familiar with all languages to an equal degree. So make sure of this:
1) Syntactic sugar is explained in comments. Sugars are pretty language specific and may not be obvious to a new reader. For instance, in VBA I seem to remember there are default properties, so that TextBox1 = "Hello" is what you'd write instead of TextBox1.Text = "Hello". This can be confusing. Also, things like LINQ statements can have un-obvious meanings. So make sure people have comments to read.
2) Where two components from different languages have to work together, make excruciatingly specific details about how that happens. For instance, I once had to write a C component to be called from Excel VBA. There's quote a few steps and potential errors in doing this, especially as far as compiler flags. Make sure both sides know how their side of the interaction occurs.
Finally, as far as hiring people goes, I think you have to find people who aren't married to a specific language. To put it vaguely, hire an intelligent person who sees business issues, not code. He'll learn the lingo soon enough.
Can anyone give me an example of successful non-programmer, 5GL (not that I am sure what they are!), visual, 0 source code or similar tools that business users or analysts can use to create applications?
I don’t believe there are and I would like to be proven wrong.
At the company that I work at, we have developed in-house MVC that we use to develop web applications. It is basically a reduced state-machine written in XML (à la Spring WebFlow) for controller and a simple template based engine for presentation. Some of the benefits:
dynamic nature: no need to recompile to see the changes
reduced “semantic load”: basically, actions in controller know only “If”. Therefore, it is easy to train someone to develop apps.
The current trend in the company (or at least at management level) is to try to produce tools for the platform that require 0 source code, are visual etc. It has a good effect on clients (or at least at management level) since:
they can be convinced that this way they will need no programmers or at least will be able to hire end-of-the-lather programmers that cost much less than typical programmers.
It appears that there is a reduced risk involved, since the tool limits the implementer or user (just don’t use the word programmer!) in what he can do, so there is a less chance that he can introduce error
It appears to simplify the whole problem since there seems to be no programming involved (notoriously complex). Since applications load dynamically, there is less complexity then typically associated with J2EE lifecycle: compile, package, deploy etc.
I am personally skeptic that something like this can be achieved. Solution we have today has a number of problems:
Implementers write JavaScript code to enrich pages (could be solved by developing widgets). Albeit client-side, still a code that can become very complex and result in some difficult bugs.
There is already a visual tool, but implementers prefer editing XML since it is quicker and easier. For comparison, I guess not many use Eclipse Spring WebFlow plug-in to edit flow XML.
There is a very poor reuse in the solution (based on copy-paste of XML). This hampers productivity and some other aspects, like fostering business knowledge.
There have been numerous performance and other issues based on incorrect use of the tools. No matter how reduced the playfield, there is always space for error.
While the platform is probably more productive than Struts, I doubt it is more productive than today’s RAD web frameworks like RoR or Grails.
Verbosity
Historically, there have been numerous failures in this direction. The idea of programs written by non-programmers is old but AFAIK never successful. At certain level, anything but the power of source code becomes irreplaceable.
Today, there is a lot of talk about DSLs, but not as something that non-programmers should write, more like something they could read.
It seems to me that the direction company is taking in this respect is a dead-end. What do you think?
EDIT: It is worth noting (and that's where some of insipiration is coming from) that many big players are experimenting in that direction. See Microsoft Popfly, Google Sites, iRise, many Mashup solutions etc.
Yes, it's a dead end. The problem is simple: no matter how simple you make the expression of a solution, you still have to analyze and understand the problem to be solved. That's about 80-90% of how (most good) programmers spend their time, and it's the part that takes the real skill and thinking. Yes, once you've decided what to do, there's some skill involved in figuring out how to do that (in a programming language of your choice). In most cases, that's a small part of the problem, and the least open to things like schedule slippage, cost overrun or outright failure.
Most serious problems in software projects occur at a much earlier stage, in the part where you're simply trying to figure out what the system should do, what users must/should/may do which things, what problems the system will (and won't) attempt to solve, and so on. Those are the hard problems, and changing the environment to expressing the solution in some way other that source code will do precisely nothing to help any of those difficult problems.
For a more complete treatise on the subject, you might want to read No Silver Bullet - Essence and Accident in Software Engineering, by Frederick Brooks (Included in the 20th Anniversary Edition of The Mythical Man-Month). The entire paper is about essentially this question: how much of the effort involved in software engineering is essential, and how much is an accidental result of the tools, environments, programming languages, etc., that we use. His conclusion was that no technology was available that gave any reasonable hope of improving productivity by as much as one order of magnitude.
Not to question the decision to use 5GLs, etc, but programming is hard.
John Skeet - Programming is Hard
Coding Horror - Programming is Hard
5GLs have been considered a dead-end for a while now.
I'm thinking of the family of products that include Ms Access, Excel, Clarion for DOS, etc. Where you can make applications with 0 source code and no programmers. Not that they are capable of AI quality operations, but they can make very usable applications.
There will always be "real" languages to do the work, but we can drag and drop the workflow.
I'm using Apple's Automator which allows users to chain together "Actions" exposed by the various applications on their systems.
Actions have inputs and/or outputs, some have UI elements and basic logic can be applied to the chain.
The key difference between automator
and other visual environments is that
the actions use existing application
code and don't require any special
installation.
More Info > http://www.macosxautomation.com/automator/
I've used it to "automate" many batch processes and had really great results (surprises me every time). I've got it running builds and backups and whenever i need to process a mess of text files it comes through.
I would love to know whether iHook or Platypus (osx wrapper builders for shell scripts) could let me develop plugins in python ....
There is definitely room for more applications like this and for more support from OSX application developers but the idea is sound.
Until there's major support there aren't many "actions" available, but a quick check on my system just showed me an extra 30 that i didn't know i had.
PS. There was another app for OS-preX called "Filter Tops" which had a much more limited set of plugins.
How about Dabble DB?
Of course, just like MS Access and other non-programmer programming platforms, it has some necessary limitations in order that the user won't get him or herself stuck... as John pointed out programming is hard. But it does give the user a lot of power, and it seems that most applications that non-programmers want to build are database-type applications anyway.
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Just want to ask for some opinions here. How do you feel about using a language (and/or framework) that isn't widely used in your location to write software for a company? For instance, I live in an area dominated by .NET, with the occasional PHP job. Let's say that I'm learning Python and decide to use it to write software for my job (I'm a "Team of One" so I can pretty much use anything I want).
Now their software is written in a language that pretty much nobody in the area uses or knows; if I were to leave the company, they'd basically have nobody to maintain/add to it unless they retain on me as a consultant. While that's really good for me, it seems a bit "crooked" - granted, that's how the business world works.
What are your thoughts?
I should mention that this is a very small company and I'm the only IT person, so I have full reign to choose our development platform. I'm not specifically using Python, but chose it as an example since my area is almost entirely .NET based; I don't care for .NET anymore though, which is why I don't want to consider using it. Also, the company is.. how shall we say... extremely frugal and wouldn't purchase the required resources for .NET (e.g. server licenses, SQL licenses, Visual Studio, components). I personally have an MSDN subscription but I can't use that for them.
Also FWIW there are people in the area who use the language I'm considering using (Ruby on Rails), but nowhere near as many people as .NET developers. It's not like I'm using something that only I know.
You may think that this approach is good for you. But in fact all this does is paint you in to a corner. The best way to get promotion - within an organisation is to make yourself unnecessary in your current position. That might seem like nonsense, but it is in fact true. Think of it like this, if it is essential to the company that you continue to maintain the python code you wrote for them, and they can't go to anyone else to get that skill, then they will continue to pay (maybe a little above market rates) to maintain that code.
If however, you write that code in .net where there is a plentiful supply in your area, then as the company expands and the code you've written proves successful, you will be able to hire people to maintain that code and you can move on to designing other systems. Or moving in to managing a team of .net coders - if that's your want.
Even if you want to leave, the best thing for your career is going to be to get the best possible reference. To do that, write them some code that is easy to maintain. Help them hire someone to replace you to maintain it. They will be grateful and recommend you as a consultant to their friends.
Code in something esoteric - for which there is little support in your area - and they will be saying to their friends on the golf course "no don't hire that guy, he wrote this system for us which does the job, but no one else can maintain it. We're stuck with him forever and now he's too busy to look after us properly!"
Do what's best for the business, not what might be of most interest to you - or appear that way on the face of it. You'll win out in the long run.
I think that you're responsible to decide on the language that's best suited for the job. That includes an objective evaluation of the merits of the language and framework, it includes your own personal skill with the language (since you're the one doing the work) and it includes maintainability by others. Only you and your company can decide how much importance to place on each of those.
For your own personal development, if your area is dominated by .net, why don't you want to get up to speed in that instead of Python?
From an ethical standpoint, I would not write something that could not easily be maintained by someone else.
A lot of responses seem to be a poor fit for the question. We're not talking about using an unapproved language in an environment with existing standards. We're talking about a situation where the poster is the entire IT and development department for his company.
It's certainly important to keep in mind availability of talent, but Ruby is hardly a fringe language these days. In an environment where there's only one developer, productivity is also a very important consideration. Being able to build and maintain software quickly and easily without a large team requires tools with different characteristics than a large team might require.
I think what's more important than whether to use Ruby or (something else) is to try to pick something as general-purpose as practical and use it for everything unless there's a really good reason to use something else. If you go with Ruby, stick with Ruby for your utility scripts, cron jobs and that little GUI app the boss wanted to automatically SMS the intern when he takes more than five minutes to bring him his coffee.
I think using python would be the right thing to do if it would meet the clients requirements, and save them money over the alternative. Whether or not there is a wide assortment of characters to work on the application down the road is irrelevant, unless they've specified this as a non-functional requirement.
As usual, using the best tool for the job at hand will serve you well.
It indeed is a bit crooked IF you use it only for that purpose.
However, if you use it because it IS the best solution, youre in the clear.
Also, they can just hire someone else who knows python.
My work ethics dont allow me to do something like this just to keep me in business.
My personal opinion is you should try where possible to respect the working practices of wherever you are - whether that's indentation style, naming convention, testing procedure or programming language.
If you feel strongly that a different language would be better suited for a certain task, then lobby to have it accepted (with the required re-training of others).
Purposefully leaving an app that no one else can maintain is very bad professional conduct, IMO.
We recently had a bad hire at my shop and he decided out of the blue he was going to use Perl instead of any version of .NET to do some simple reporting stuff (That could have just as easily been done in .NET). It was atrocious. I would suggest using the platform as specified and clearing any deviation with the people who run the joint...
Plenty of answers have touched on this, but here's my take based on production application support.
My company had a startup phase where code hustlers whipped up solutions in whatever the personal preference or flavor of the week was. Bad for maintainability and supportability.
Making a change is ok, though, as long as it's consistent. If Python is going to pave the way to the future, then go for it. Don't forget that the legacy .NET and PHP code still needs to be supported until end of life. Building yourself a hodge podge of platforms and frameworks will just create more difficulty for you on the job and the company when you're no longer around.
If you feel in your heart you are acting dishonestly, then you probably are.
No one likes a dishonest person. That can't be good for your reputation.
Do your best to choose based on what is actually best, not what satisfies some underhanded motives.
It depends. I did some of what would normally just be a bash script, in Java instead at one place. Why? Because they're all Java programmers and frequently have interns/coops coming through that may or may not know anything else (and may or may not even be all that great with Java).
Other places though tend to have more experienced programmers and I expect that they'll be able to figure out another language without too much effort. So, I would go with what's "best" for the project.
I agree with what mquander says above, but you may also have to be prepared to justify why you want to use this other language to your development manager. If he/she then agrees, perhaps the language could become more widely adopted within the company.
Think of it in terms of business benefit you bring to the company, now and in the mid-term.
If you can deliver something much faster using a different technology, and it still achieves the goals, I'd go for it - but I'd still let some other people know and respect the company's final decision. If however, it's purely for yourself, then I'd probably be a litte more careful.
I think it's a really bad idea. For you, it means there's no back up in case you want to have a day (or week) off. For them, there's no one else if you leave or are taking a day off. It's a well known ploy, and, honestly, might be reason to not keep you around.
However, this could also be a chance to introduce Python into the environment. You could teach others about it, and explain to management while it's a good third language to have at the group's disposal.
I used to think that you should always pick the right language for the job at work. I'm reversing my opinion though.
The problem arises when some other guy picks a language you don't want to learn. I am concerned that I might be the guy who picks the language no one else wants to learn. Just because I think that Erlang might be the right choice for something doesn't mean that everyone else will want to learn Erlang or respect my decision for using Erlang.
"if I were to leave the company, they'd basically have nobody to maintain/add to it unless they retain on me as a consultant."
Are you saying no one else can learn Python? I find that hard to believe.
New technology is often introduced in small projects by knowledgeable people and diffused through the organization because the small projects were successful.
Use Python. Be successful. Make your case based on your successes.
I had this same problem very often. Coincidentally, it was with those two languages you mention: .NET forced on me, when I preferred to use Python (among others). Could be the opposite, I don't judge.
I refrained to use Python, because of the reasons already mentioned in other answers. I did what I thought was best for the company. Using IronPython won't make your python code any more maintainable for an unexperienced Python programmer.
However, I left the company and now I work in something more in line with my tastes. I'm much happier. In this economy you may not have this option... but it will pass. Do the right thing.
Cheers.
There is a large difference between 'prototype' or 'one-shot' code and production code. For prototyping I use whatever works fastest, but I'm very clear about its status. Production code is written in one of the approved and supported environments.
The ethics is to use the best tool for the job. If there is a tool that takes you only 20% of the time to code vs other choices, and next to no maintenance, and easy to re-factor, you have a duty to pick that tool, assuming it's extensible as you may need in the business.
If you do a good job, hiring future people and training them in terms of HOW your workplace does business should be the practice of any growing business. They will be able to learn the code if they're the right person for the business.
In your case I'm not sure if you want to use Python, unless it has native .NET support to allow your .NET world to interact with it.
Other posters have made some good points, but here's one I've not seen: Communicate the situation to management and let them decide. In other words, talk with your boss and tell him or her that there currently are more .NET developers in your area, so that if you're hit by a bus tomorrow it would easier to find someone else to maintain your code; however, there are tools you need to do your job more efficiently and they cost money (and tell them how much). Alternatively, you could do this in Python or RoR (or whatever) and use free tools, but from what you know, there aren't currently that many people in the area who know those languages. I've used "currently" a couple times here because this may change over time.
Before having this conversation, it might be good to see if you can find user groups for the alternative technology in your area, and how large they are. You could also ask on listserves if there are people who know the alternatives in your area.
Of course, the boss may tell you to keep using .NET without any tools, but in that case it's their decision to shoot themselves in the foot. (And yours to decide if you want to find a new job.)
Regarding the question as asked, I see nothing unethical about it, provided that:
It is a freely-available language. Although I am something of a FOSS partisan, that's not the point of this criterion. It needs to be freely-available (not necessarily FOSS) so that it doesn't impose costs on the company and so that others will have the opportunity to learn it if you ever need to be replaced (or if they want to compete with you for your job).
You are changing languages for solid reasons and not for the sake of creating vendor lock-in (or, if you prefer to think of it as such, "job security"). Ethics aside, you really don't want to have a job where they hate you, but are stuck with you because you're the only one who can maintain the mess you've created anyhow.
In the particular case you've described, I would suggest that switching to RoR may be the more ethical choice, as it would be decidedly unethical (not to mention illegal) to use .NET if there are required resources which are for-pay only and your employer is too cheap frugal to purchase proper licenses for them.
When in Rome... do as the Romans.
You might not be the one who as to maintain this code in the long term and not everyone wants to learn a "fringe language" to make bugfixes or enhancements.
I migrated some VBA stuff over to Perl for processing at a previous job and increased the efficiency by several orders of magnitude, but ultimately no-one else there was willing to learn Perl so I got stuck with that task longer than I wanted it.
I did that, it was Delphi in my case. I think Delphi was used often however when i was looking for a job .... i saw 3 delphi job offers in my whole life. i also saw more java/j2ee/php offers that i can remember. i think its bad idea, with the time i wasted in learning advance delphi programming i could get better with j2ee and start in better company and maybe make now more money.
If they cant find somebody to maintain the app you will always do it and when you quit they will have to re-write it. i think consultant thing is not used often.
I used to be in the "use the best tool for the job" school, but I've changed my mind. It's not enough to just ask "how can I do this job the fastest." If you think you're the only one who will ever need to look at some code, there's a good chance you're mistaken. The total cost of introducing a new language into an environment is higher than you might imagine at first.
If you just need to produce a result, not a program, then you can use whatever you want. Say you need a report or you need to munge some files. If the output is really all that matters, say it's something you could have chosen to do by hand, you can practice using any language you want.
With the release of the MVC Framework I too have been in a similar ethical delema. Use WebForms or switch over to MVC Framework for everything. The answer really is you have to do the right thing and use whatever the standard of the company is. If you deviate from the standard it creates a lot of problems for people.
Think how you would feel if you were dumped a project on VB6 when all you have been doing for years is .Net. So these are the two solutions I have come up with.
Use your fun languages for consulting contracts you do on the side. Make sure the client knows what you are doing and if they agree go for it.
Try and convince your current company to migrate over to this great new language you are working with.
If you follow these routes you will learn your language and not piss anyone off in the process.
Ruby on Rails is certainly not a fringe language. If the company is too cheap to pony up for the appropriate licensing for Microsoft's tools, then you would have no choice but to find an alternative. RoR certainly would be a reasonable choice and if helps move your career along as well, then it's win-win for both of you!
You can develop .NET adequately with free tools; cost is not a good reason to avoid that platform. Ruby on Rails is becoming reasonably mainstream for building data-driven internet websites. You haven't even told us if thats the sort of software you are building though.
There is really no way with the information that you have provided that anyone can give you a single correct answer.
If you are asking is it ethical to do your work in such a way that the company is dependent upon you, of course the answer is no. If you are asking is it ethical to develop in RoR then the answer is "we don't know" - but my opinion is that probably it would be fine if its the right tool for the job.
Don't underestimate the ability of someone else to support your work or replace you though - if you do your work reasonably well once the solution is in place any programmer worth their pay should be able to learn the platform well enough to maintain it. I've debugged, migrated and supported a few PHP applications for example without ever hardly learning the first thing about PHP. I'd be lost building a new PHP app from scratch and would never even try but its no problem to support one. I think the same would be true of the languages you mention as well - they've got the critical mass that means there is plenty of books and forums etc. Of course if its written badly enough in any language then it may be difficult to support regardless of anyone's skill in the language...
So much discussion for such a clear-cut situation...
It's not up to you, it's up to them. If they're not technical enough to make the call, as it seems, then you have to make it for them in good faith. Anything less is dishonest, and I'm fairly sure that's not in your job description ;)
You've muddied the waters with all the wandering about in the thickets of personal motivations. The answer to that one is that your personal motivations are irrelevant unless and until you've formulated the business case for the possible decisions. If you've done that and the answer still isn't clear-cut, then sure, choosing the answer you like the best is one of the nice things about being in a position to make technical decisions in the first place.
As far as the actual question goes, to my mind if the most technically apt choice is also one that very few people work with, one of two things is happening: a) It's a good choice, and the number of people working with it is going to be exploding over the next 18-24 months (e.g. Django), or b) There's something wrong with my analysis. Technologies may be on the fringe because people are slow to adopt them, but that's generally not why they stay on the fringe.
If you find yourself thinking "I can't choose technology X, that'll make it easier for them to replace me!" you're in the wrong line of work. In almost any enterprise that's not actually failing, the IT guy who makes himself easy to replace tends to move up to harder and more interesting and more lucrative work.
I would not bring a new language/framework/whatever into the place unless they understood that's what I was doing, and that if I left/was fired/was hit by a bus, they'd have to find/train someone to work with it.
I have some experience in a contractor pulling in things just because he felt like it. In some cases they were the best tool for the job (in other cases they were not), but in all cases they were not the best tool for the team that had to maintain the code. In my case the contractor was a serious jerk who didn't really give a darn about anyone else and I believe WAS trying to make himself harder to replace.
In your case, talk to your bosses. If they really don't want to spend the needed money on .NET framework tools/libs, then switching to something else may well BE the right thing to do for them, long term.
And, as someone who has spent his career walking into the middle projects that others have already started - thank you for thinking before you add a new tool to the mix.