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Just want to ask for some opinions here. How do you feel about using a language (and/or framework) that isn't widely used in your location to write software for a company? For instance, I live in an area dominated by .NET, with the occasional PHP job. Let's say that I'm learning Python and decide to use it to write software for my job (I'm a "Team of One" so I can pretty much use anything I want).
Now their software is written in a language that pretty much nobody in the area uses or knows; if I were to leave the company, they'd basically have nobody to maintain/add to it unless they retain on me as a consultant. While that's really good for me, it seems a bit "crooked" - granted, that's how the business world works.
What are your thoughts?
I should mention that this is a very small company and I'm the only IT person, so I have full reign to choose our development platform. I'm not specifically using Python, but chose it as an example since my area is almost entirely .NET based; I don't care for .NET anymore though, which is why I don't want to consider using it. Also, the company is.. how shall we say... extremely frugal and wouldn't purchase the required resources for .NET (e.g. server licenses, SQL licenses, Visual Studio, components). I personally have an MSDN subscription but I can't use that for them.
Also FWIW there are people in the area who use the language I'm considering using (Ruby on Rails), but nowhere near as many people as .NET developers. It's not like I'm using something that only I know.
You may think that this approach is good for you. But in fact all this does is paint you in to a corner. The best way to get promotion - within an organisation is to make yourself unnecessary in your current position. That might seem like nonsense, but it is in fact true. Think of it like this, if it is essential to the company that you continue to maintain the python code you wrote for them, and they can't go to anyone else to get that skill, then they will continue to pay (maybe a little above market rates) to maintain that code.
If however, you write that code in .net where there is a plentiful supply in your area, then as the company expands and the code you've written proves successful, you will be able to hire people to maintain that code and you can move on to designing other systems. Or moving in to managing a team of .net coders - if that's your want.
Even if you want to leave, the best thing for your career is going to be to get the best possible reference. To do that, write them some code that is easy to maintain. Help them hire someone to replace you to maintain it. They will be grateful and recommend you as a consultant to their friends.
Code in something esoteric - for which there is little support in your area - and they will be saying to their friends on the golf course "no don't hire that guy, he wrote this system for us which does the job, but no one else can maintain it. We're stuck with him forever and now he's too busy to look after us properly!"
Do what's best for the business, not what might be of most interest to you - or appear that way on the face of it. You'll win out in the long run.
I think that you're responsible to decide on the language that's best suited for the job. That includes an objective evaluation of the merits of the language and framework, it includes your own personal skill with the language (since you're the one doing the work) and it includes maintainability by others. Only you and your company can decide how much importance to place on each of those.
For your own personal development, if your area is dominated by .net, why don't you want to get up to speed in that instead of Python?
From an ethical standpoint, I would not write something that could not easily be maintained by someone else.
A lot of responses seem to be a poor fit for the question. We're not talking about using an unapproved language in an environment with existing standards. We're talking about a situation where the poster is the entire IT and development department for his company.
It's certainly important to keep in mind availability of talent, but Ruby is hardly a fringe language these days. In an environment where there's only one developer, productivity is also a very important consideration. Being able to build and maintain software quickly and easily without a large team requires tools with different characteristics than a large team might require.
I think what's more important than whether to use Ruby or (something else) is to try to pick something as general-purpose as practical and use it for everything unless there's a really good reason to use something else. If you go with Ruby, stick with Ruby for your utility scripts, cron jobs and that little GUI app the boss wanted to automatically SMS the intern when he takes more than five minutes to bring him his coffee.
I think using python would be the right thing to do if it would meet the clients requirements, and save them money over the alternative. Whether or not there is a wide assortment of characters to work on the application down the road is irrelevant, unless they've specified this as a non-functional requirement.
As usual, using the best tool for the job at hand will serve you well.
It indeed is a bit crooked IF you use it only for that purpose.
However, if you use it because it IS the best solution, youre in the clear.
Also, they can just hire someone else who knows python.
My work ethics dont allow me to do something like this just to keep me in business.
My personal opinion is you should try where possible to respect the working practices of wherever you are - whether that's indentation style, naming convention, testing procedure or programming language.
If you feel strongly that a different language would be better suited for a certain task, then lobby to have it accepted (with the required re-training of others).
Purposefully leaving an app that no one else can maintain is very bad professional conduct, IMO.
We recently had a bad hire at my shop and he decided out of the blue he was going to use Perl instead of any version of .NET to do some simple reporting stuff (That could have just as easily been done in .NET). It was atrocious. I would suggest using the platform as specified and clearing any deviation with the people who run the joint...
Plenty of answers have touched on this, but here's my take based on production application support.
My company had a startup phase where code hustlers whipped up solutions in whatever the personal preference or flavor of the week was. Bad for maintainability and supportability.
Making a change is ok, though, as long as it's consistent. If Python is going to pave the way to the future, then go for it. Don't forget that the legacy .NET and PHP code still needs to be supported until end of life. Building yourself a hodge podge of platforms and frameworks will just create more difficulty for you on the job and the company when you're no longer around.
If you feel in your heart you are acting dishonestly, then you probably are.
No one likes a dishonest person. That can't be good for your reputation.
Do your best to choose based on what is actually best, not what satisfies some underhanded motives.
It depends. I did some of what would normally just be a bash script, in Java instead at one place. Why? Because they're all Java programmers and frequently have interns/coops coming through that may or may not know anything else (and may or may not even be all that great with Java).
Other places though tend to have more experienced programmers and I expect that they'll be able to figure out another language without too much effort. So, I would go with what's "best" for the project.
I agree with what mquander says above, but you may also have to be prepared to justify why you want to use this other language to your development manager. If he/she then agrees, perhaps the language could become more widely adopted within the company.
Think of it in terms of business benefit you bring to the company, now and in the mid-term.
If you can deliver something much faster using a different technology, and it still achieves the goals, I'd go for it - but I'd still let some other people know and respect the company's final decision. If however, it's purely for yourself, then I'd probably be a litte more careful.
I think it's a really bad idea. For you, it means there's no back up in case you want to have a day (or week) off. For them, there's no one else if you leave or are taking a day off. It's a well known ploy, and, honestly, might be reason to not keep you around.
However, this could also be a chance to introduce Python into the environment. You could teach others about it, and explain to management while it's a good third language to have at the group's disposal.
I used to think that you should always pick the right language for the job at work. I'm reversing my opinion though.
The problem arises when some other guy picks a language you don't want to learn. I am concerned that I might be the guy who picks the language no one else wants to learn. Just because I think that Erlang might be the right choice for something doesn't mean that everyone else will want to learn Erlang or respect my decision for using Erlang.
"if I were to leave the company, they'd basically have nobody to maintain/add to it unless they retain on me as a consultant."
Are you saying no one else can learn Python? I find that hard to believe.
New technology is often introduced in small projects by knowledgeable people and diffused through the organization because the small projects were successful.
Use Python. Be successful. Make your case based on your successes.
I had this same problem very often. Coincidentally, it was with those two languages you mention: .NET forced on me, when I preferred to use Python (among others). Could be the opposite, I don't judge.
I refrained to use Python, because of the reasons already mentioned in other answers. I did what I thought was best for the company. Using IronPython won't make your python code any more maintainable for an unexperienced Python programmer.
However, I left the company and now I work in something more in line with my tastes. I'm much happier. In this economy you may not have this option... but it will pass. Do the right thing.
Cheers.
There is a large difference between 'prototype' or 'one-shot' code and production code. For prototyping I use whatever works fastest, but I'm very clear about its status. Production code is written in one of the approved and supported environments.
The ethics is to use the best tool for the job. If there is a tool that takes you only 20% of the time to code vs other choices, and next to no maintenance, and easy to re-factor, you have a duty to pick that tool, assuming it's extensible as you may need in the business.
If you do a good job, hiring future people and training them in terms of HOW your workplace does business should be the practice of any growing business. They will be able to learn the code if they're the right person for the business.
In your case I'm not sure if you want to use Python, unless it has native .NET support to allow your .NET world to interact with it.
Other posters have made some good points, but here's one I've not seen: Communicate the situation to management and let them decide. In other words, talk with your boss and tell him or her that there currently are more .NET developers in your area, so that if you're hit by a bus tomorrow it would easier to find someone else to maintain your code; however, there are tools you need to do your job more efficiently and they cost money (and tell them how much). Alternatively, you could do this in Python or RoR (or whatever) and use free tools, but from what you know, there aren't currently that many people in the area who know those languages. I've used "currently" a couple times here because this may change over time.
Before having this conversation, it might be good to see if you can find user groups for the alternative technology in your area, and how large they are. You could also ask on listserves if there are people who know the alternatives in your area.
Of course, the boss may tell you to keep using .NET without any tools, but in that case it's their decision to shoot themselves in the foot. (And yours to decide if you want to find a new job.)
Regarding the question as asked, I see nothing unethical about it, provided that:
It is a freely-available language. Although I am something of a FOSS partisan, that's not the point of this criterion. It needs to be freely-available (not necessarily FOSS) so that it doesn't impose costs on the company and so that others will have the opportunity to learn it if you ever need to be replaced (or if they want to compete with you for your job).
You are changing languages for solid reasons and not for the sake of creating vendor lock-in (or, if you prefer to think of it as such, "job security"). Ethics aside, you really don't want to have a job where they hate you, but are stuck with you because you're the only one who can maintain the mess you've created anyhow.
In the particular case you've described, I would suggest that switching to RoR may be the more ethical choice, as it would be decidedly unethical (not to mention illegal) to use .NET if there are required resources which are for-pay only and your employer is too cheap frugal to purchase proper licenses for them.
When in Rome... do as the Romans.
You might not be the one who as to maintain this code in the long term and not everyone wants to learn a "fringe language" to make bugfixes or enhancements.
I migrated some VBA stuff over to Perl for processing at a previous job and increased the efficiency by several orders of magnitude, but ultimately no-one else there was willing to learn Perl so I got stuck with that task longer than I wanted it.
I did that, it was Delphi in my case. I think Delphi was used often however when i was looking for a job .... i saw 3 delphi job offers in my whole life. i also saw more java/j2ee/php offers that i can remember. i think its bad idea, with the time i wasted in learning advance delphi programming i could get better with j2ee and start in better company and maybe make now more money.
If they cant find somebody to maintain the app you will always do it and when you quit they will have to re-write it. i think consultant thing is not used often.
I used to be in the "use the best tool for the job" school, but I've changed my mind. It's not enough to just ask "how can I do this job the fastest." If you think you're the only one who will ever need to look at some code, there's a good chance you're mistaken. The total cost of introducing a new language into an environment is higher than you might imagine at first.
If you just need to produce a result, not a program, then you can use whatever you want. Say you need a report or you need to munge some files. If the output is really all that matters, say it's something you could have chosen to do by hand, you can practice using any language you want.
With the release of the MVC Framework I too have been in a similar ethical delema. Use WebForms or switch over to MVC Framework for everything. The answer really is you have to do the right thing and use whatever the standard of the company is. If you deviate from the standard it creates a lot of problems for people.
Think how you would feel if you were dumped a project on VB6 when all you have been doing for years is .Net. So these are the two solutions I have come up with.
Use your fun languages for consulting contracts you do on the side. Make sure the client knows what you are doing and if they agree go for it.
Try and convince your current company to migrate over to this great new language you are working with.
If you follow these routes you will learn your language and not piss anyone off in the process.
Ruby on Rails is certainly not a fringe language. If the company is too cheap to pony up for the appropriate licensing for Microsoft's tools, then you would have no choice but to find an alternative. RoR certainly would be a reasonable choice and if helps move your career along as well, then it's win-win for both of you!
You can develop .NET adequately with free tools; cost is not a good reason to avoid that platform. Ruby on Rails is becoming reasonably mainstream for building data-driven internet websites. You haven't even told us if thats the sort of software you are building though.
There is really no way with the information that you have provided that anyone can give you a single correct answer.
If you are asking is it ethical to do your work in such a way that the company is dependent upon you, of course the answer is no. If you are asking is it ethical to develop in RoR then the answer is "we don't know" - but my opinion is that probably it would be fine if its the right tool for the job.
Don't underestimate the ability of someone else to support your work or replace you though - if you do your work reasonably well once the solution is in place any programmer worth their pay should be able to learn the platform well enough to maintain it. I've debugged, migrated and supported a few PHP applications for example without ever hardly learning the first thing about PHP. I'd be lost building a new PHP app from scratch and would never even try but its no problem to support one. I think the same would be true of the languages you mention as well - they've got the critical mass that means there is plenty of books and forums etc. Of course if its written badly enough in any language then it may be difficult to support regardless of anyone's skill in the language...
So much discussion for such a clear-cut situation...
It's not up to you, it's up to them. If they're not technical enough to make the call, as it seems, then you have to make it for them in good faith. Anything less is dishonest, and I'm fairly sure that's not in your job description ;)
You've muddied the waters with all the wandering about in the thickets of personal motivations. The answer to that one is that your personal motivations are irrelevant unless and until you've formulated the business case for the possible decisions. If you've done that and the answer still isn't clear-cut, then sure, choosing the answer you like the best is one of the nice things about being in a position to make technical decisions in the first place.
As far as the actual question goes, to my mind if the most technically apt choice is also one that very few people work with, one of two things is happening: a) It's a good choice, and the number of people working with it is going to be exploding over the next 18-24 months (e.g. Django), or b) There's something wrong with my analysis. Technologies may be on the fringe because people are slow to adopt them, but that's generally not why they stay on the fringe.
If you find yourself thinking "I can't choose technology X, that'll make it easier for them to replace me!" you're in the wrong line of work. In almost any enterprise that's not actually failing, the IT guy who makes himself easy to replace tends to move up to harder and more interesting and more lucrative work.
I would not bring a new language/framework/whatever into the place unless they understood that's what I was doing, and that if I left/was fired/was hit by a bus, they'd have to find/train someone to work with it.
I have some experience in a contractor pulling in things just because he felt like it. In some cases they were the best tool for the job (in other cases they were not), but in all cases they were not the best tool for the team that had to maintain the code. In my case the contractor was a serious jerk who didn't really give a darn about anyone else and I believe WAS trying to make himself harder to replace.
In your case, talk to your bosses. If they really don't want to spend the needed money on .NET framework tools/libs, then switching to something else may well BE the right thing to do for them, long term.
And, as someone who has spent his career walking into the middle projects that others have already started - thank you for thinking before you add a new tool to the mix.
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I'm currently faced with a very unusual design problem, and hope that a developer wiser than myself might be able to offer some insight.
Background
Without being too specific, I've been hired by a non-profit organisation to assist with the redevelopment of their legacy, but very valuable (in terms of social value) software. The development team is unlike any I've encountered in my time as a software developer, and is comprised of a small number of developers and a larger group of non-programming domain experts. What makes the arrangement unusual is that the domain experts (lets call them content creators), use custom tooling, some of which is based around a prolog expert system engine, to develop web based software components/forms.
The Problem
The system uses a very awkward postback model to perform logical operations server side and return new forms/results. It is slow, and prone to failure. Simple things, like creating html forms using the existing tooling is much more arduous than it should be. As the demand for a more interactive, and performant experience grows, the software developers are finding increasingly that they have to circumvent the expert system/visual tooling used by the content creators, and write new components by hand in javascript. The content creators feel increasingly that their hands are tied, as they are now unable to contribute new components.
Design approach: Traditional/Typical
I have been advocating for the complete abandonment of the previous model and the adoption of a typical software development process. As mentioned earlier, the project has naturally evolved towards this as the non-programmatic development tooling has become incapable of meeting the needs of the business.
The content creators have a very valuable contribution to make however, and I would like to see them focusing on formally specifying the expected behaviour of the software with tools like Cucumber, instead of being involved in implementation.
Design approach: Non-programmatic
My co-worker, who I respect a great deal and suspect is far more knowledgeable than me, feels that the existing process is fine and that we just need to build better tooling. I can't help but feel however that there is something fundamentally flawed with this approach. I have yet to find one instance, either historical or contemporary where this model of software development has been successful. COBOL was developed with the philosophy of allow business people/domain experts to write applications without the need for a programmer, and to my mind all this did was create a new kind of programmer - the COBOL programmer. If it was possible to develop effective systems allowing non-programmers to create non-trivial applications, surely the demand for programmers would be much lower? The only frameworks that I am aware of that roughly fit this model are SAP's Smart Forms and Microsoft's Dynamix AX - both of which are very domain specific ERP systems.
DSLs, Templating Languages
Something of a compromise between the two concepts would be to implement some kind of DSL as a templating language. I'm not even sure that this would be successful however, as all of the content creators, with one exception, are completely non technical.
I've also considered building a custom IDE based on Visual Studio or Net Beans with graphical/toolbox style tooling.
Thoughts?
Is non-programmatic development a fools errand? Will this always result in something unsatisfactory, requiring hands on development from a programmer?
Many thanks if you've taken the time to read this, and I'd certainly appreciate any feedback.
You say:
Something of a compromise between the
two concepts would be to implement
some kind of DSL as a templating
language. I'm not even sure that this
would be successful however, as all of
the content creators, with one
exception, are completely non
technical.
Honestly, this sounds like exactly the approach I would use. Even "non-technical" users can become proficient (enough) in a simple DSL or templating language to get useful work done.
For example, I do a lot of work with scientific modeling software. Many modelers, while being much more at home with the science than with any form of engineering, have been forced to learn one or more programming languages in order to express their ideas in a way they can use. Heck, as far as I know, Fortran is still a required course in order to get a Meteorology degree, since all the major weather models currently in use are written in Fortran.
As a result, there is a certain community of "scientific programming" which is mostly filled with domain experts with relatively little formal software engineering training, expertise, or even interest. These people are more at home with languages/platforms like Matlab, R, and even Visual Basic (since they can use it to script applications like Excel and ESRI ArcMap). Recently, I've seen Python gaining ground in this space as well, mainly I think because it's relatively easy to learn.
I guess my point is that I see strong parallels between this field and your example. If your domain experts are capable of thinking rigorously about their problems (and this may not be the case, but your question is open-ended enough that it might be) then they are definitely capable of expressing their ideas in an appropriate domain-specific language.
I would start by discussing with the content creators some ideas about how they would like to express their decisions and choices. My guess would be that they would be happy to write "code" (even if you don't have to call it code) to describe what they want. Give them a "debugger" (a tool to interactively explore the consequences of their "code" changes) and some nice "IDE" support application, and I think you'll have a very workable solution.
Think of spreadsheets.
Spreadsheets are a simple system that allows non-technical users to make use of a computer's calculation abilities. In doing so, they have opened up computers to solve a great number of tasks which normally would have required custom software developed to solve them. So, yes non-programmatic software development is possible.
On the other hand, look at spreadsheets. Despite their calculational abilities you really would not want as a programmer to have to develop software with them. In the end, many of the techniques that make programming languages better for programmers make them worse for the general population. The ability to define a function, for example, makes a programmer's life much easier, but I think would confuse most others.
Additionally, past a certain point of complexity trying to use a spreadsheet would be a real pain. The spreadsheet works well within the realm for which it was designed. Once you stray too far out that, its just not workable. And again, its the very tools programmers use to deal with complexity which will prevent a system being both widely usable and sufficiently powerful.
I think that for any given problem area, you could develop a system that allows the experts to specify a solution. It will be much harder to develop that system then to solve the problem in the first place. However, if you repeatedly have similiar problems which the experts can develop solutions for, then it might be worthwhile.
I think development by non-developers is doomed to failure. It's difficult enough when developers try it. What's the going failure rate? 50% or higher?
My advice would be to either buy the closest commercial product you can find or hire somebody to help you develop a custom solution with your non-developer maintenance characteristics in mind.
Being a developer means keeping a million details in mind at once and caring about details like version control, deployment, testing, etc. Most people who don't care about those things quickly tire of the complexity.
By all means involve the domain experts. But don't saddle them with development and maintenance as well.
You could be putting your organization at risk with a poorly done solution. If it's important, do it right.
I don't believe any extensive non-programmer solution is going to work. Programming is more than language, it's knowing how to do things reasonably. Something designed to be non-programmer friendly will still almost certainly contain all the pitfalls a programmer knows to avoid even if it's expressed in English or a GUI.
I think what's needed in a case like this is to have the content creators worry about making content and an actual programmer translate that into reasonable computer code.
I have worked with two ERP systems that were meant for non-programmers and in both cases you could make just about every mistake in the book with them.
... Simple things, like creating html forms using the existing tooling is much more arduous than it should be...
More arduous for whom? You're taking a development model that works (however badly) for the non-programming content creators, and because something is arduous for someone you propose to replace that with a model where the content creators are left out in the cold entirely? Sounds crazy to me.
If your content creators can learn custom tooling built around a Prolog rules engine, then they have shown they can learn enough formalism to contribute to the project. If you think other aspects of the development need to be changed, I see only two honorable choices:
Implement the existing formalism ("custom tooling") using the new technology that you think will make things better in other ways. The content creators contribute exactly as they do now.
Design and implement a domain-specific language that handles the impedance mismatch between what your content creators know and can do and the way you and other developers think the work should be done.
Your scenario is a classic case where a domain-specific language is appropriate. But language design is not easy, especially when combined with serious usability questions. If you are lucky you will be able to hire someone to help you who is expert in both language design and usability. But if you are nonprofit, you probably don't have the budget. In this case one possibility is to look for help from another nonprofit—a nearby university, if you have one.
I'd advise you to read this article before attempting to scrap the whole system. I look at it this way. What changed to prompt the redevelopment? Your domain experts haven't forgotten how to use the original system, so you already have some competent "COBOL programmers" for your domain. From your description, it sounds like mostly the performance requirements have changed, and possibly a greater need for web forms.
Therefore, the desired solution isn't to change the responsibilities of the domain experts, it's to increase the performance and make it easier to create web forms. You have the advantage of an existing code base showing exactly what your domain experts are capable of. It would be a real shame not to use it.
I realize Prolog isn't exactly the hottest language around, but there are faster and slower implementations. Some implementations are designed mostly for programmer interactivity and are dynamically interpreted. Some implementations create optimized compiled native code. There are also complex logical programming techniques like memoization that can be used to enhance performance, but probably no one learns them in school anymore. A flow where content creators focus on creating new content and developers focus on optimization could be very workable. Also, Prolog is ideally suited for the model layer, but not so much for the view layer. Moving more of your view layer to a different technology could really pay off.
In general though, 2 thoughts:
You cannot reduce life to algorithms. Everything we know (philosophically, scientifically) and experience demonstrates this. (Sorry, Dr. Minsky).
That said, a Domain-Specific tool that allows non-programmers to express a finite language is definitely doable as several people have given examples. Another example of this type of system is Mathematica and especially Simulink which are used very successfuly over a range of applications. However, the failure of Expert Systems, Fuzzy logic, and Japan's Fifth Generation computer project of the 80's to take-off demonstrate the difficulty in doing this.
Labview is a very successful none programatic programming environment.
What an interesting problem.
I would have to ultimately agree with you, and disagree with your colleague.
The philosophy and approach of Domain Driven Development/Design exists exactly for your purposes, in that it puts paramount importance on the specific knowledge of the experienced domain experts, and on communicating that knowledge to talented software developers.
See, in your issue, there are two distinct things. The domain, and the software. The domain should be understood and specified first and foremost without software development in mind.
And then the transformation to software happens between the communication between domain experts and programmers.
I think trying to build "programming" tools for domain experts is a waste of time.
In Domain Driven Development your domain experts will continue to be important, and you'll end up with better software.
In your colleague's approach you're trying to replace programmers with tool.... maybe in the future, like, start trek future, that will be possible, but today I don't think so.
I am currently struggling with a similar problem in trying to enable healthcare providers to write rules for workflows, which isn't easy because they aren't programmers. You're a programmer not because you went to programming school -- you're a programmer because you think like a programmer. Fortunately, most hospitals have some anesthesiologist or biomedical engineer who thinks like a programmer and can manage to program. The key is to give the non-programmers-who-think-like-programmers a language that they can learn and master.
In my case, I want doctors to be able to formulate simple rules, such as: "If a patient's temperature gets too low, send their doctor a text message". Of course it's more complicated than that because the definition of "too low" depends on the age of the patient, a patient may have many doctors, and so on, but a smart doctor will be able to figure out those rules. The real issue is that the temperature sensor will often fall off the patient and read ambient temperature, meaning that the rule is useless unless you can figure out how to determine that the thermometer is actually reading the patient's temperature.
The big problem I have is that, while it's relatively easy to create a DSL so that doctors can express IF [temperature] [less-than] [lookup-table [age]] THEN [send-text-message], it's much harder to create one that can express all the different heuristics you might need to try before coming up with the right way to make sure the reading is valid.
In your case, you may want to consider how VB became popular: It has a form drawing tool that anybody can easily use to draw forms and set properties on form items. Since not everything can be specified by form properties and data binding, there's a code-behind mode that lets you do complex logic. But to make the tool accessible to beginning programmers, the language is BASIC, so users didn't have to learn about pointers, memory allocation, or data structures.
While you probably wouldn't want to give your users VB, you might consider a hybrid approach. You would have one "language" (it could be graphical, like VB's form designer or Labview) where inexperienced users can easily do the simple stuff, and another language to enable expert users to do the complicated stuff.
I had this as a comment previously but I figured it deserved more merit.
There are definitely a number of successful 'non-programmatic' tools around, off hand I can think of Labview, VPL and graph based (edit: I just noticed this link has more far more than just shaders on it) shaders which are prevalent in 3D applications.
Having said that, I don't know of any which are suited to web based dev (which appears to be your case).
I dout very much the investment on developing such tools would be worth it (unless maybe you could move to sell it as a product as well).
I agree with you - non-technical people will not be able to program anything non-trivial.
Some products try to create what's basically a really simple programming language. The problem is that programming is an aptitude as well as a skill. It takes a certain kind of mindset to think in the sort of logic used by computers, which just can't be abstracted away by any programming language (at least not without without making assumptions that it can't safely make).
I've seen this in action with business people trying to construct workflows in MS Dynamics CRM. Even though the product was clearly intended to allow them to do it without a programmer they just couldn't figure out how to make a loop or an if-else condition work, no matter how "friendly" the UI tried to make it. I watched in amazement as they struggled with something that seemed completely self-obvious to me. After a full day (!) of this they managed to produce a couple of very basic workflows that worked in some cases, but didn't handle edge cases like missing values or invalid data. It was basically a complete waste of time.
Granted, Dynamics CRM isn't exactly the epitome of user-friendliness, but I saw enough to convince me that this is, indeed, a fool's errand.
Now, if your users are not programmers, but still technical people they might be able to learn programming, but that's another story - they've really become "new programmers" rather than "non-programmers" then.
This is a pretty philosophical topic and difficult to answer for every case, but in general...
Is non-programmatic development a fools errand?
Outside of a very narrow scope, yes. Major software vendors have invested billions over the years in creating various packages to try to let non-technical users create & define workflows and processes with limited success. Your best bet is to take advantage of what has been done in that space rather than trying to re-invent it.
Edit:
Sharepoint, InfoPath, some SAP stuff are the examples I'm talking about. As I said above, "a very narrow scope". It's possible to let non-programmers create workflows, complex forms, some domain processes, but that's it. Anything more general-purpose is simply trying to make non-programmers into programmers by giving them very crude tools.
Non programatic software development IS feasable, as long as you are realistic about what non-developers can reasonaby achieve - its all about a compromise between capability and ease of use.
The key is to break the requirements down cleanly into things that the domain experts need to be able to do, and spend time implementing those features in a foolproof way - The classic mistake is to try to let the system to do too much.
For example suppose you want domain experts to be able to create a form with a masked text input:
Most developers will look at that requirement and create a fancy control which accepts some sort of regular expression and lets the domain expert do anything.
This is the classic developer way of looking at things, however it's likely that your domain expert does not understand regular expressions and the developer has missed the point of the reqirement which was for the domain expert to be able to create this form.
A better solution might have been to create a control that can be confgiured to mask either Email addresses or telephone numbers.
Yes this control is far less capable than the first control, and yes the domain experts have to ask developers to extend it when they want to be able to mask to car registration numbers, however the domain experts are able to use it.
It seems that the problem is of organizational nature and cannot be solved by technical means alone.
The root is that content creators are completely non-technical, yet have to perform inherently technical tasks of designing forms and writing Prolog rules. Various designers and DSLs can alleviate their problems, but never solve them.
Either reorganize system and processes so knowledge carriers actually enter knowledge - nothing else; or train content creators to perform necessary development with existing tools or may be DSLs.
Non-programmatic development can save from low-level chores, but striving to set up system once and let users indefinitely and unrestrictedly expand it is certainly a fools errands.
Computer games companies operate like this all the time, so far as I can tell: a few programmers and a lot of content creators who need to be able to control logic as well (like level designers).
It's also probably a healthy discipline to be able to separate your code from the data and rules driving it if you can.
I'm therefore with your colleague, but of course the specifics may not make this general solution appropriate!
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Closed 10 years ago.
Its always said that more you program, the better you become. Sounds good and true.
But I was wondering if there is a proven route to becoming a better programmer.
Something like:
Learn a
Learn b
Learn c > 'Now you are good to burn the engines'
Try stuff around based on your learning.
The answer might be similar to a CS course roadmap, but I want to hear from successful programmers who might want to pitch in with something notable.
Thanks
It's not true that practice makes perfect.
It's perfect practice that makes perfect.
If all you do is keep repeating the same bad practices again and again, you'll only make it possible to create bad code faster.
By all means keep coding. But at the same time be critical of everything you do. Always have a jaundiced eye that looks for ways to do things better. Read widely to get new ideas. Talk to others about how they do things. Look at other people's code, good and bad.
There's no "sure" way to learn anything that I know of. If there was, anyone could master this.
All questions are rhetorical and meant to stimulate thought.
Technical parts:
Design Patterns - There are probably some specific to a domain but generally these are useful ways of starting parts of an application. Do you know MVC or MVP?
Basic algorithm starting points - Divide and conquer, dynamic programming, recursion, creating special data types like a heap, being greedy, etc.
Problem solving skills - How easily can you jump in and find where a bug is? Can you think of multiple solutions to the problem?
Abstract modelling - How well can you picture things in your head in terms of code or classes when someone is describing a problem?
High level versus low level - How well do you understand when one wants something high or low? This is just something I'd toss out there as these terms get through around a lot, like a high level view of something or a low level language.
Process parts:
Agile - Do you know Scrum, XP, and other new approaches to managing software projects? How about principles like YAGNI, DRY and KISS? Or principles like SOLID? Ideas like Broken Windows?
Developer Environment - How well do you know the IDE you use? Source Control? Continuous Integration? Do you know the bottle necks on your machine in terms of being productive?
xDD - Do you know of TDD, BDD, and other developments driven from a paradigm?
Refactoring - Do you go back over your old code and make it better or do you tend to write once and then abandon your code?
Soft skills:
Emotional Intelligence - Can be useful for presentations and working with others mostly.
Passions/Motivation - Do you know what gets your juices flowing and just kick butt in terms of being productive? Do you know what you would like to do for many many years?
My main piece of advice would be: don't be afraid to rewrite your own code. Look at stuff you wrote even a month ago and you will see flaws and want to rewrite stuff.
Make sure that you understand some fundamentals: collections, equality, hashcodes etc. These are useful across pretty much all modern languages.
Depending on the language you use - use lint and metric tools and run them over your code. Not all their suggestions will be applicable but learning which are important and which are not is important. E.g FindBugs, PMD etc for Java.
Above all refine and keep refining your work. Don't treat your work as abandonware!
Learn your 1st programming language a new programming paradigm or a
find a mentor you can learn from
Apply what you've learnt in a real world project
Learn from your mistakes and successes and goto step one
The trick is knowing what to learn first:
Programming languages - this is the place to start bcause you cannot write software without knowing at least one of these. After you've mastered one language try learning another.
Programming paradigm - i.e. object oriented, dynamic/functional programming etc. Try to learn a new one with each new language.
Design concepts - S.O.L.I.D, design patterns as well as architectural concepts.
People skills - learn to communicate your ideas.
Team leadership - learn how to sweep others and how to become a team or technological lead.
After that the sky is the limit.
I would look at improving roughly in this order, in iterations with each building on the previous one:
Programming concepts. Understand things like memory management, pointers, stacks, variable scope, etc.
Languages. Work on mastering several modern languages.
Design concepts. Learn about design patterns. Practice using them.
Communication. Often-overlooked. You can only become a highly valued Software Engineer if you can communicate effectively with non-tech people. Learn to listen and understand the needs that people are expressing, translate that into a set of requirements and a technical design, but then explain what you understood (and designed) back to them, in terms they can understand, for validation before you code. This is not an easy one to master, but it is essential.
Architectural concepts. Learn to understand the big picture of large, complex systems.
Learning a programming language is in many ways similar to learning a spoken language. The only way to get good at it is to do it as often as possible. In other works
Practice, practice, read and then practice more
Take time to learn about all sorts of coding techniques, tools and programming wisdom. This I have found to be crucial to my development. It's to easy to just code away and feel productive. What about what could be if you just had some more knowledge / weaponry under your belt to bang out that next widget.
Knowledge/know how is our real currency. The more we know the more we can make a better decision about how something should be done and do it faster.
For example, learn about:
•Development Practices, Software Design, Estimation, Methodologies Business Analysis Database Design (there are a lot of great books out there and online resources)
•Read Code - Open Source Projects are a good place for this. Read
Programming blogs
•Try to participate on Open Source
Projects.
•Look for programming user groups in
your town and/or someone who can mentor you.
And yes, as mentioned practice. Don't just read, do and watch how you will improve. :)
Practice, practice, practice.
Once you're over the basic hump of being able to program, you can also read useful books (i.e. Code Complete, Effective Java or equivalents, etc.) for ideas on how to improve your code.
First and foremost write code. Write as much as you can. Tackle hard problems. If you want to be a really good programmer you need to get into the guts of what you are doing. Spend a lot of time in debuggers looking at how things work. If you want to be a good programmer who really understands what is going on you need to get down to the metal and write highly async code, learn about how processors work and why SSE is so awesome. Understand threading primitives and be able to write them as well as describe what is actually happening in the processor. I could keep going here but you get the idea.
Second find someone who knows a lot more than you and learn. This relationship will work better if you are already deeply immersed in writing lots of code.
Third, spend some time in a large high quality open source code base. I learned a ton from the Quake I and Quake II code. Helped me be a better programmer.
Fourth take on hard problems. Push your limits. Build things that you thought were impossible. Right now I am writing a specialized compiler. I have learned so much just working on this for the last couple of months.
Sure, strictly speaking, the more you practice programming, the better you become at solving those sorts of problems. But is that what you really want?
Programming is a human activity more than a technological one, at its heart. It's easy to improve your computer skills, not so hard to improve your interpersonal skills.
Read "Journey of the Software Professional" by Hohmann. One of the concepts the concepts Hohmann describes is the "cognitive library," which includes both programming skills and non-programming skills. Expand your cognitive library, and your programming skill will improve too.
Read a lot of non-programming books too, and observe the world around you. Creating useful metaphors is an essential skill for the successful programmer. Why do restaurants do things how they do? What trade-offs is the garbage department making when they pick up the garbage every few days instead of every day? How does scaling affect how a grocery store does business? Be an inquisitive human to be a better programmer.
For me, there has to be a reason to learn something new... that is, unless I have a project in mind or some problem I need to solve, there's no hope. If that prerequisite is met, then I usually try to get "Hello, world" working, and after that the sky's the limit. So much of development these days is just learning new APIs. Occasionally there's some kind of paradigm shift that blows your mind, but that's not as common as people like to think, IMHO.
Find a program that intrigues you, one that solves a problem, or one that would simplify many of your tasks. Try to write something similar. You'll get up to speed very quickly and have fun doing it at the same time.
You can try learning one thing really well and then expanding out to programming areas that are associated with the things that you have learnt, so that you can offer complete solutions to customers.
At the same time, devote part of your time to explore things outside your comfort zone.
One you have learned something, try to learn something a little harder. Read and practice a lot about things that seem confusing at first time (lambda functins, threading, array manipulation, etc). It will take its time, but once you have practiced enough, what seemed confusing at first, will be familiar and easy.
In addition to the rest of the great advice already given here, don't be afraid to read about coding and good practice, but also take everything with a grain of salt and see what works best for you. A lot of advice is opinion.
Good sites to read:
-thedailywtf.com
-joelonsoftware.com
-codinghorror.com
-blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing
A great place to get practice is programming competition websites. Those will help you learn how to write good algorithms, not necessarily maintainable code, but they're still a good place to start for learning.
The one I used to use (back when I had time) was:
http://uva.onlinejudge.org/
Learn more than one language. One at a time, definitely, but ultimately you should be fluent in a couple. This will give you a better perspective I think, and help you to become an expert at programming, rather than being an expert at a certain language.
Learn the ins and outs of computers at all levels, hardware, os, etc. Ideally you should be able to build your own system, install multiple operating systems on it, and diagnose just about every problem that can arise. I know many programmers who are not "computer tech people" and their failure to understand what is happening at every level becomes a major hindrance in diagnosing and fixing unusual bugs or performance issues.
As well as looking at 'last weeks code', talk to users of your work after delivery - be one yourself if possible.
Its not my bag, but some of the best coders I know have spent time supporting applications. The experience improved their product I'm sure.
eat breath dream the programming language your using (no seriously, it helps)
There are two kinds of learning -
1. Informal (like how you learned how to function in society- through interaction with peers and family)
2. Formal (like your high school training- through planned instruction)
If you want an entry-level programming job, formal training via an undergrad Computer Science/Engineering degree is the way to go. However, if you want to become a rock-star developer, it is best done by informal training- make unintentional mistakes and have senior developers curse at you, learn a design pattern because an app you are updating uses it, almost cry because a bad developer wrote a huge messy program lacking documentation and best practices and now you have to do several updates to it ASAP; thing of these nature.
It is hard for anyone to give you a list of all you need to know. It varies per area (e.g. a web developer vs. to a desktop developer) and it varies per company (e.g. Microsoft that sells software vs. General Motors that mainly just use it in their cars.) Informal traiing and being engaged in trying to learn to do your job better and get promoted is your best bet in my opinion.
To prove my point, everyone here has great answers but they all differ. Ask a rock-star developer how he learned something or when, why; they may not know- things just happen.
Practice, individually and collectively
Keep an open mind, always learn new things, don't limit yourself to what's familiar. Not solely from a tech perspective, ui design, people skills, ... Don't be afraid of what's new
Peer review, talk to people about your code, let people talk to you about their code, everyone has a unique way of looking at a problem and you will learn a great deal from peers
Love coding. If you love what you're doing, putting in alot of time seems effortless. Every coder needs the drive!
One small addition to these good answers. When I work on someone else's code, usually I pick up something new. If you have the opportunity to work with someone else that is of equal or greater skill, noticing their programming style can teach you tons.
For example, in C++ & Javascript I no longer use if() statements without braces. The reason is that it's just too easy to mistakenly put:
while (true) {
if (a > b)
print a
print b
}
This is an obvious typo, but very easy to introduce, especially if you're editing existing code. I just call it defensive programming in my mind, but little tricks like this are valuable at making you better.
So, find a peer or mentor, and work on their code.
I am not sure if the OP was looking for general advice on how to be a good programmer, but rather something more specific.
I know I am reviving this thread, but I found it because I was trying to see if anyone asked this question already.
What I had in mind was, can we come up with a "knowledge-map" of programming concepts similar to the map that Khan Academy uses.
As a programmer, I want to be able to visualize the dependencies and relationships between different ideas, so that I can understand what skill level I am currently at; what I need to know before tackling a challenging subject; and be able to visualize my progress.
The very belief in the roadmap's existence blocks the road to perfection.
Just a question that came up from time to time at my old job when we were considering fleshing out our development staff with additional bodies. Does it really matter, if you are a .NET development house, if your developers all code in one language vs another.
I probably started out like alot of the 4million other folks there with Visual Basic way back when, and then migrated to VB.NET. Another developer we had at the time came from a C background and migrated over to C#.NET. Basically he was able to code very quickly in his native language and I was able to do so in mine and since our projects did not really overlap there was no issue until our boss basically said we need to switch to C#... for no other reason than standardization.
So I guess the 'subjective' part of the question is, is it better to sacrifice productivity for consistency? Now I should quantify this in saying we were a SMALL shop, less than 5 developers and given how most of our project plans were done on cocktail napkins its not like we were going for 6-Sigma anytime soon so it was not like 'standards' were a hard and fast rule.
Thanks.
C# is definitely becoming the preferred avenue for Microsoft and it would make sense to choose a language that all developers to use simply based on the fact that if developers move between tasks, having the projects in a uniform language (not to mention coding conventions) will make the maintenance on those projects much easier for everyone involved.
If it helps, I recently wrote an article on my blog looking back at my decision to standardize our development shop on VB.NET over C# and how well my various assumptions have held up and things hindsight has shown me.
Here's a link: "A Manager’s Retrospective on the C# versus VB.NET decision"
As to whether you should standardize the whole shop on one language. I'd say there are definite benefits. The most obvious one is that switching back and forth when you work on different projects is going to incur some mental overhead to re-acclimate yourself each time. Granted, it is going to be less if you have to do it frequently, but to justify the extra complexity there would have to be some offsetting benefit.
Ultimately my advice is to standardize on one or the other based on the following criteria:
(1) If you have a large VB code-base there is a good argument for standardizing on VB.NET.
(2) If everything else is equal, I'd lean towards C# for a number of reasons mentioned in the above article.
(3) Carefully take into account your current team's preferences and the general consensus among developers in your market that you would try to recruit. Language choice is a big deal for morale and hiring.
I think it makes sense to pick one and get everyone on it. The sacrifice in productivity will be brief, competent developers will migrate quickly.
Some advantages:
your last VB developer and the team get downsized...uh oh.
one of the developers quits and you have to take over their code
etc.
I'd say go for whatever works. VB.NET and C# use all the same underlying framework so you should be able to read each others code and with a little googling you should be able to modify it too.
I'd say go for productivity.. ultimately is the customer going to care if it's written in VB.NET or C#?? But saying that you have to think about maintanability.
So I guess the 'subjective' part of
the question is, is it better to
sacrifice productivity for
consistency?
Of course not. What good is consistency, by itself? Ultimately the goal of consistency is productivity. With that in mind, I would suggest that, long term, having everyone code in one language would be the best way to go...in general over the long haul, a lot more time is spent modifying and maintaining code than in writing it, and I would think that having people spend the ramp up time once would be better than having to switch back and forth all the time.
our boss basically said we need to
switch to C#... for no other reason
than standardization. (...) So I guess
the 'subjective' part of the question
is, is it better to sacrifice
productivity for consistency?
Of course not. The only question is what value this 'consistency' has in terms of future productivity, because productivity is all that matters. 'Consistency' by itself is not a business value. It may only help you to achieve more productivity in the future.
Several factors must be balanced:
(+) Tomorrow people will have to maintain only one language, the most popular .Net language: C#. (See Note 1)
(-) Today you must learn C#, which is a cost for your company, unless you do it for free in your weekends. Of course this is a (-) in terms of cost. Learning C# is good by itself, it just has a cost.
(-) Today after learning C#, you or someone else must switch one project from Visual Basic .Net to C#. That has a cost, depending on the LOC count of the project. Also, errors might be introduced, so you need to rerun your unit tests, go over all the failures and work them out. Also, you need to repeat some integration testing, to guarantee that everything works well.
You can't tell what the outcome of the balance is with this information. But you don't have to tell, anyway, since your boss presumably has better information and has already taken the decision. All that you need to do is to actually do it.
Note 1: However, this reasoning is dangerously close to "the world would be a better place if VB.NET didn't exist", which may be too strong a statement. VB.NET, or a mix of both languages, might be a good option in some scenarios.
We're still a mixed language group where I work; however, mixed with a purpose. Nearly all hardware related projects are done in C++ (not assembly, I know :() and all nearly all windows applications are done in C#.
Considering C# popularity and ease, I'd say it's in a company's interest to move to it for when they get new, greener employees.
How do you see yourself as shop?
VB.NET is strong in markets that directly lean on Office, maybe client apps too, while C# is particularly strong in serverside and larger applications.
Maybe it is not about following your or his choice, but make a choice to align with the nature of the shop.
It is important to stick to a singular language choice, if possible. Obviously, if you are writing unmanaged C++, or have some other similar scenario, there would be notable exceptions. Many people have hit on the efficiency of homogeneous language choices, once you have ramped up. Most of the developers I know will run into an efficiency issue when switching languages, even if they know it inside and out. After coding in C# for a couple of months, if I have to go back to VB.NET to maintain something, there is a good day where I have to consciously think about things that are normally automatic. They are simple things, like using vs. Imports, type conversion, etc. It isn't that you forget how it works, but that your mind wants to do something the way you have been doing it for an extended period. A lot like the old parlor trick of pushing your arms out against a door frame for a minute and then resting them at your side. They want to go back up, because that is the signal that your brain is used to sending.
Another very important takeaway, is that this efficiency factor is important in code reviews, as well. If you are working in VB.NET and have to review C#, you are going to have the same stumbling blocks. Sure, you understand the code, but your rate or accuracy in analyzing the code will not be the same as it would be if it was in the same language you are currently using.
There are some additional minor points. Some tooling is geared towards one language over another. For example, Resharper works for both VB.NET and C#, but it provides a larger set of refactorings if you are using C#. Also, if someone in your organization maintains a company coding standard, it makes changes to those standards half as complex, if only a single language needs to be addressed.
I think this also goes a long with coding style standards. Is there really a reason why a development team chooses to go with 3 spaces for tabs rather than 4? Not really there is no technical or business advantage to this decision other than uniformity and making everyone's code look the same so when I switch between files my brain doesn't have to adjust to the new formatting.
Same thing applies here with the uniformity for C# and VB.net. There is no technical or business advantage for taking one over the other (NOTE: I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find something really obscure). But having everyone's code uniform helps when moving from project to project so people don't have to switch gears from thinking in C# to thinking in VB.net.
One of the advantages of using the .Net platform for development is the fact that you have the ability to develop in the language that is best able to express you solution to the problem at hand.
An arbitrary rule IMO should not prevent you from using F# or a DLR language when those languages would be a more natural fit than an imperative language like C# or VB.Net.
It's a harder decision to make with VB.Net vs. C# because the languages are so similar but If you need to do a lot of work with XML then VB.Net's XML literals may help make the code clearer, conversely C#s terse syntax and support for anonymous methods may make your intent clearer.
As part of a wide ranging job for a cystic fibrosis support organization, they'd also like a web site set up and I've decided on Apache running on Linux (due to its security and low cost mostly). Other than (fairly) static content, they also want a forum where people can discuss issues with the condition - it'll be attached to a hospital chain so there'll be plenty of medical staff there who know little about the web.
I can handle all the specific coding and Apache setup since I've done it before but I'm interested in people's opinions as to whether I should roll my own forum software or get a hold of some ready-built stuff. I've not had any experience with forum software but I could generate my own (initially buggy, I'm sure) in a month or so.
It'll require registration and login to leave comments (but guest access just to read) and I'd like it to be 'pretty' (excuse me while I remember damning customers for providing similarly vague requirements specs :-) but not necessarily infinitely-configurable with skins/themes/etc.
If anyone has some compelling reasons (and experience with specific products that can provide what I need), I'd be interested in hearing about them. Alternatively, does anyone have any 'gotchas' they experienced while coding their own forum software?
Advantages to rolling your own:
a non-standard custom-built system means you'll be less prone to "standard" attacks (e.g.: a vulnerability in PunBB) since bad guys tend to bother with exploit-hunting only on widely-deployed systems (more return on their investment)
absolute control over how your system works and looks
you'll learn a lot
Disadvantages:
you'll repeat mistakes other people have already solved
it'll take you longer to get up and running
long-term it'll be more maintenance (since you have to fix bugs & add features yourself).
you can't "leverage the community" -- if you choose an off-the-shelf forum that has a plugin system then there's a whole bunch of community add-ons that won't be available for your custom forum software.
There's a GIANT list of forum software on wikipedia -- there's most likely something in there that will suit your needs that you can get up and running quickly.
IMHO the old "don't build what you can buy" adage applies to this (well, the web 2.0 version is obviously "don't build what you can download"). Have a look around at the available forum software, pick one that covers 99% of your needs and tweak it to do the rest.
If you still want to build your own forum software that'll probably be a cool side project but if the job is to get a forum up and running, then go and download one - don't try to mix up the desire to do cool stuff and the day job unless the day job is just to do cool stuff only.
One of the best-kept secrets on the internets is a little gem called FUDforum, by Ilia Alshanetsky.
And yes, it's the same Ilia who wrote xDebug's original profiler code, improved the caching in MMcache, fixed several security bugs in libmcrypt, and who was the release manager for the PHP language from 4.3.3 to 4.3.6+. He is, as my friends in Boston would say, wicked smaart.
Because of this, FUDforum is robust, ridiculously fast and more secure than probably any other part of your web application will ever be. It comes with a neat install script and it has all the features you'll need.
Plus, it's not a high-profile target like phpBB or vBulletin, which means you won't have to worry about spambots constantly banging on the gates.
Having written my own forum software before...
It seems like a simple problem, but when you get into it, you find that there's a lot of little things that you'd like to do nicer, and it takes a lot of time. Mine was cool and all, and I did get paid for it, but if I was doing it over again (which has also happened), I'd use a customizable pre-made solution, and spend all my spare time doing something productive. :)
Forum softwares tend to have rather complex minimum requirements. A few things you are very likely to need do matter what you do:
Forum/thread/post hierarchy;
User system;
Security system (eg user/admin classes and all kinds of restrictions for users);
Gathering statistics;
BBCodes or some other minimized markup language (NEVER allow users to do full HTML);
File uploads and avatars;
Bans and other punishments;
CAPTCHAs;
etc.
Ready made forum systems provide this out-of-the-box and lots more. Setup is mostly easy too. Why do it all over again yourself?
My answer would be: don't reinvent the wheel, there are plenty of fora software out there. My preference would go for RForum if you need only that.
I'd say, don't waste your time. phpBB 3 is pretty stable, usable and feature-rich forum. We use it at work (for our internal discussions), and I really don't have anything bad to say about it.
I'd concur with most of the above posters that since you want something which appears fairly standard, why reinvent something that already exists?
Like any development, creating forum software is probably much harder than it looks! There will be problems solved in the existing software which you haven't even considered.
It's worth adding that if you do require any specific additional functionality, you can always build that on top of an existing solution anyway, which is especially easy if you have the source code (whether open source or commercial).
From the sounds of the website that you are building, there is the potential for the forum to be a highly useful and visible resource, it would be good to go with something that already exists, due to the quality of a lot of the products out there and the rich communities that surround them.
I think that vBulletin, although a paid for product, would suit your needs and give you a great base to build a community on.
vanilla is pretty bare bones and easy to configure, perhaps find a system which is easy to extend vs building everything yourself
Ready built until you have some really unique features needed that can be tied to money it will make you.
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Closed 11 years ago.
I'm dealing with an issue with my current employer that has seriously made me consider seeking employment elsewhere. They are under the impression that 100% of custom development should be eliminated and replaced with COTS products, such as SharePoint. While I realize that this is not a realistic expectation, I've found it impossible to argue my points with the people in management that share these views. Their argument usually involves something along the lines of a feature already existing in SharePoint that covers feature X, therefore there is less risk involved and testing doesn't have to be done against it.
Case in point, we have a situation where a SharePoint list is completely incapable of meeting customer expectations and requirements. Saving this data in a SQL database, however, would easily satisfy the requirements. Any time our development team suggests going outside of the boundaries of SharePoint, however, management goes up in flames about how every line of code adds to the complexity of the project and increases risk. While this is certainly true in some situations, it's not always the case. Their argument, however, is that since SharePoint provides a mechanism for storing data, that we should use it 100% of the time. Regardless of if it meets customer requirements, or not.
I've gotten to the point that I hate coming to work because I'm constantly forced into doing things that I know (with 100% certainty) are not right and that could be made right by doing custom development. It's simply what seems to be an impossible argument where I work, however.
Have any of you experienced a similar situation? If so, what have you done to work through these challenges?
If you don't share the vision of the company and if you can't enlighten them then sure, it is a good time to start looking.
Have you pointed out that there is risk in forcing a "solution" on a client that does not help them or is missing functionality or is unusable?
Perhaps come up with plans to address and mitigate their perceived risks.
You document your concerns and let those above you know them, and then you do as they ask. If it doesn't work, you have documentation that you brought the concerns up. But try to make it work their way, so it doesn't look like you're trying to undermine their plans. They're taking the greater risk, and thus they get the greater responsibility. Try your best to make it work their way, and quit worrying about it.
This may sound bad and may not be the answer you want. There is a little known division in my office called "The Skunk Works." People, on their own accord (usually during lunch breaks or compile time) decide to write little programs that help the company. The fun things about this is the result doesn't "cost" the company anything.
The conversation usually goes like this:
"We need to buy this software" -Boss
"But, we have had that thing for months. John, wrote that back in the day" -Programmer
"?" -Boss
A lot of times the developers see a decision as being bad and just create a parallel process that happens automatically. Then, when the stuff hits the fan and the customers are frustrated, the alternate solution is ALREADY in place.
I have an example of an auto release machine. Developers used to create these custom reports. As our customers increased, the developer's workload increased. The problem was "In order for the customer to get the custom report developer had to be involved." So, while the company was looking into hiring someone to do reports full time or to find ways to have the customers do them, I wrote an auto release machine that looks for report changes and releases them directly to the customer. I also wrote a utility that allows anybody to make changes to the reports that was easier to use than what the developer has. When the Boss made the announcement of trying to find a solution, I told him that it was already in place and that even he could make changes to reports and get them released. Now, everybody can change reports, usually it is management and customer support who make these changes. The fun side is that developers arn't involved anymore.
Just do it. If you're going to quit anyways, might as well try.
Does someone in management own stock in SharePoint? Was the system developed by the CEO's younger brother?
If they are that resilient to change, you should find out the real reason before trying to argue with them. They may claim that there is added complexity, difficulty testing, etc, but if you can counter every argument with one that shows their position, with all due respect, to be misinformed, and they still won't discuss, then you may be arguing the wrong point.
If they are locked into the technology because of a non-technical reason, such as someone once read that SharePoint is the ultimate in any technical situation (and, of course, had no clue what the article was talking about other than SharePoint = good) then you shouldn't bother trying to argue and save your energy. For the job hunt.
Prove it to them. When the requirements ask for a list that can handle 100,000 items with a multi-column sort - write a script that adds 100,000 test items into a sharepoint list and let them try it, preferrably with the "customer" requesting the list watching. :-)
I would definitely get my resume out and into the open if I were you. Not only is the experience that you are currently having frustrating, it can really hurt your career development over the long haul. Just think about it. While you are languishing with your current employer in your current position, other developers are adopting new technologies and expanding their experience.
There is such a thing as ideological differences between developers and what a company's idea of a role for a developer is. If open discussion and candor get you nowhere, you will not be faulted for a lack of effort. Loyalty to a company is a good thing, but the relationship needs to be a two-way street.
Sadly, the will eventually probably come to realize that they are wrong in their assumptions - but you can not wait for that day to come. Sometimes it never comes. In particular (and don't get me wrong, I love SharePoint when it is used for what it is intended for), SharePoint is become the next Access, in that people who read management magazines see enough of it thrown around to call it the messiah.
I find that there is typically no way of 'winning' these debates through talk alone. Many managers form an opinion of a product or solution through reading management oriented articles. See if you can find some counter-articles.
If you can cite examples of things which SharePoint is incapable of doing, and show examples of how you can cost effectively solve these problems through custom development then you are well on your way.
The mistake is to try and make this a conversation about technology, it's not, its about efficiency, cost effectiveness and maintainability - those are the mantras and metrics which will sway non-technical managers into considering alternatives.
If you can put together a proof of concept for some of these issues so much the better, eye candy really helps to sell outside of technical teams.
Finally, good luck :)
I am doing the same thing at my current job, there is no easy way to deal with this kind of situation. All I have been able to do is swallow my arguments, cause they have gotten me no where, and do as required by my management. This off course will go against your basic programmer nature of using the best solution for the task at hand, and maybe getting to build something cool in the process, but since they are the boss it is really your only solution. You could try to site cases, with evidence, where it makes more sense to use custom solutions. But if you boss is anything like mine, it won't get very far before the screaming match begins. The only other solution is dusting off that resume and finding a new job.
I have faced the same kind of challenges right from day one. Management have a natural reluctance to add custom code to the solution. However in most cases it has been posible to explain than the right solution for the customer would include some custom code.
Remember, if you argue that you can include the custom code in the common codebase, then the boss might approve the idea.
I really feel your pain.
If it was me I would use my spare time to collect information that proves my point and document it in a easy to understand way.
If they only understand money, talk money, if they only understand fear (doing "this" because they are scared of "that"), use the fear, finding scary thing for them in "their" solution.
Document every new implementation, the time, money and problem that arises. And document what your solution would be instead.
They probably doesn't see the problem in their solution, because they focus on not having problems in "your" solution.
I have worked in a place where management were not constructive in their approach, not quite as bad as you describe, but bad enough.
There are a couple of options. One is to go ahead and do what needs to be done for the client with the best "value for money" option you can. You will probably have to get the developers together as a team to make this "civil disobedience" work.
A more forceful approach that will really make the shit hit the fan is to go to the client (don't do this if it is an external client or if you wish to keep your job) and lay out what is going to happen to this project if X and Y. This is pretty much telling tales out of school and is going to be bad, but entertaining.
A slightly better way is to go up the chain and get a sponsor who can make shit happen for you. Essentially go behind your boss(es) back. This may work, but it is going to have predictable results for your relationship with your management.
Last and hardest is to identify the person who holds the view that any custom code is bad and engage them in conversation to find out where they got the belief and counter that with examples. Emphasis on conversation as you will have to listen to and understand their underlying concerns (which won't be about custom code per se) and only address them after you gain that persons trust.
I cannot tell you which way of doing things is going to work best because it depends so much on the individuals involved. All I do know is that you cannot change people and in my experience the best way to solve the problem so far has been to leave and work with people who are not so...
how about not calling it custom code. If instead you call it 'anticipated SharePoint user extensions' or something it may soften the misconception surrounding a specific term.
also, as has been said, there may be other hidden from you reasons that management is pushing this agenda. It is probably best to not second guess these too quickly, as many would be valid.
Finally, there are alot of places that need development. it doesnt hurt to look for a better match.
good luck.