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I know the topic I started is too subjective. But I just
wanted some expert guidance learning new languages. I've
been working with .NET languages (C#, VB.NET) quite a few
years (around 4). And it's been years since I stopped
experimenting with new laguages after settling down in a job.
Few weeks back I just started working on my personal
project, which I am going to spend much time in the coming
months. During the analysis I found that I just can't
accomodate the luxuries of cost effective languages,
programs and IDEs. So I planned to move to the wide spectrum
of open source languages and tools.
And when I look at the current choices, I was just
speechless. Hundreds of promising open languages and
toolsets and I found it's hard to choose. And I can't even
think of evaluating each language myself (it's a worst
nightmare). Currently I started with Mono (for the sake of
C#).
I felt this is going to be a good chance for learning new
programming languages and models. So I am open to any
language that offers me the following:
more functional
dynamic language features
better language elegance (like lambdas, Haskel like SQL syntaxes or C# LINQ)
better community support
must be open
easy interaction with the web
support for parallelism and concurrency (easy threading)
better in performance
proven web frameworks
better IDE support (I got this ease of use syndrome after using years of MS tools)
I love the Haskel and Erlang language programming approach.
But I don't have a clue about these languages' web stack and
concurrency mechanisms.
EDIT:
i would appreciate few reasons along with your choices. It will be really helpful.
I think that all these meet your requirements:
Groovy + Grails or
Python + one of these Web Frameworks or
Ruby + Rails/Camping/Merb/Sinatra or
Scala + Lift
My bet is that you'll get the groovier IDE experience with Groovy (and it's Groovy Eclipse Plugin).
Learn OOP, DesignPatterns, understanding of Algorithms... the rest is "just" language. You will find, if You learn 5th... 8th language there are some similarities, some prons and cons... what You need learn is to move business needs to some technical platform.
Weird. I can't believe noone has suggested Python yet.
These are not new languages, but I vote that if you have experioence with them, then you will be a better programmer in whatever language you choose to use:
Smalltalk (or Objective-C), otherwise you have not experienced OOP.
Lisp for functional, reflective, meta programming.
Prolog for logic programming.
All of these are quite far from your basic C-like language, both in concept and syntax.
Alan Kay invented OOP and Smalltalk, he is quoted as "C++ is not what I intended", and C++ is what most of todays OOP-languages mimics. C++-style OOP is merely syntactic sugar ontop of structs with function pointers. OOP can be so much more. Ruby is closely related, but you would miss out on interleaved method names.
Lisp has been around since 1958, and the fans keep saying that everything that gets added to any new language is just something borrowed from Lisp. Maybe not strictly true, but somewhat accurate, Lisp had garbage collection 50 years ago. Easiest way to experience it today would be to write something in Clojure.
Prolog is based on formal logic. Prolog is declarative, where you declare facts and rules and is executed by constructing queries on these relations. Kind of like puzzle games in some magazines :).
In the .NET world sounds like you're talking either F# and IronRuby. IronPython might also suit your needs.
Personally I'm going to give a vote for Python, Ruby and Mono.NET.
Of the three you were probably on the right track when you said you looked at Mono; it's C# (which you have previous experience with), there are good, free IDEs available SharpDevelop being one which makes it cheap and there's a really solid community behind it all.
You don't really say what kind of programming you want to do. Do you already know C/C++? If not, I'd really recommend learning those instead of anything new and fancy.
However, if it's new and fancy that you want and you'd like to be able to write native apps, then I'd have a look at:
D
It's similar to C++, but hopefully better in many ways. It has the advantage of out performing most other new and fancy languages and most of the features on your wish list.
I have looking to Haskell questions in SO, and I recovering my university notes on functional programming as a hobby. But I've always wondered how could something done in Haskell get outside Hugs interpreter and integrate with a C#, C++ or Java project. Has anybody done that? How?
Well, first of all, Haskell compiles to machine code, so you don't have to worry about the interpreter bit.
As far as integrating with other languages, your best bet is the Foreign Function Interface.
For integrating with .NET projects, there is also http://haskell.forkio.com/dotnet/
To integrate with other code, you need to use the FFI (as was already said). Usually, you would use GHC (the Glasgow Haskell Compiler) and compile to machine code, rather than use an interpreter like Hugs. (Most "real" projects use GHC instead of Hugs.)
Python has a subset which is pretty much a functional language.
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I've been thinking of making a desktop program but I have no experience in that. I've been programming in PHP, ASP and JavaScript before. Java seems to be nice since you can run it on all OS. But what I really want is result, I do not really care what language makes me a good programmer (I'll take that later in college :P). I've tried both C# and Python before but it was only console applications.
So, what programming language do you recommend to me?
If you want Windows results, C#. If you want cross-platform results, Python.
You could also just pick randomly. Or you could try them all. Or look at the 16 trillion previous questions on this exact same topic.
UPDATE:
To find those questions, I mentioned, try some Google fun:
"what language" OR "which language" learn site:stackoverflow.com
My personal bias would be towards learning functional programming (Scala or even lisp would be nice). But, honestly, any language could improve your skills pretty dramatically at this point. Just take a look at a few of the mainstream ones, and pick the one that suits your interest the best.
For some ideas (not in any particular order):
C - Learning the low-level details of memory allocation can be useful background. If you use Linux, there's tons of sample code in Gnome apps to show you how to write reasonably elegant code in the language.
C++ - C on steroids... there's lots of complexity here if you want to learn it, but it can also be a great language to have in your arsenal.
C#/Java - Nice, high-level, reasonably portable languages. I prefer the C# language over Java, but there are advantages and disadvantages to each (Java portability is better). In the end its just a matter of preference, and external factors (legacy codebases may swing you one way or the other).
Scala - Java on Steroids - Really nice language, but the learning curve can be a bit steep, IMO.
Python/Ruby/Lisp/etc - Nice scripting languages, most of which are easy to learn, and all of which will lead to new ways of thinking about problems.
Honestly, in the end, the most important rule is just to have fun. Look through the basic "hello world" tutorials and just pick the one that looks the most pleasant. Learning never hurts.
I've found that making desktop applications in C# / VB.NET (I'd strongly recommend the former) can be much easier than other languages, particularly with a good IDE such as Visual Studio (or the free Express editions) or Sharp Develop. It will be much easier to get it going on Windows, of course (I don't know much about Mono + WinForms), but I think the easier transition is worth the tradeoff.
Many people have been suggesting low level languages such as C, C++, but frankly I'm not certain that it would be a worthwhile investment of your time. The first programming language I learned was C, from the K&R book, but if I were to teach my son how to program today I would introduce him to python or ruby.
Both python and ruby are very expressive, sophisticated languages that are easy to learn and have an intuitive, english like syntax. By all means do learn about structured programming, and older compiled languages, but initially you'll reap more benefit from learning OO concepts in a high level language.
Java and C# are excellent languages, however they are very tightly coupled with their frameworks, and you may run the risk of getting bogged down learning a framework instead of programming fundamentals.
If you were comfortable in PHP you will feel right at home with Perl, better yet, pampered. You could even turn around and use Perl on the web with your former languages via CGI.
If GUIs is what you're after, C# is your best bet for Windows and Java for other platforms.
If you want result and GUI and you don't care if it's windows only, you probably want C#.
If you want to run on different platforms, you might check out any language on the JVM since they all have access to a pretty powerful GUI toolkit. (Jython, Groovy, Java, ...)
Don't bother with the desktop just yet. Hit the command line.
Get the K&R book and really learn C. You don't know how much you've missed out on if your background is 100% high-level (PHP, Python, Ruby, JS) web dev.
Learn the fundamentals, then raise the bar by going into C# or Objective C.
You can go easy or go hard, go fast or go slow.
Many people say C#, it's nice and can also be used on Linux through mono. On the other hand you can go with C/C++ and maybe Java. You'll have fun with C/C++, learn something and be a better programmer; but it will take time. Java is simpler but "needy". If you want the easiest way to develop a desktop application, you can go with VB or Delphi. Delphi has some advantages over VB which I'm not going to go into here.
My advice would be, if you have time, are willing, and just want to experience GUI, go from low to high, slow to fast, hard to easy. Try assembler, know C/C++, use Java, crack open C# and browse thought VB and Delphi.
In the end maybe you will not create a powerful application, but you will be prepared for college, be experienced and generally "know stuff".
For someone with HTML and Javascript skills Adobe AIR could be the way to go.
It allows you to create a desktop application using HTML/DHTML or if you are familiar with Flex you can also use Flex.
See http://www.adobe.com/products/air/
Go through K&R C. Learn C and you should have a great foundation for learning other languages.
i would say that Java would give a good introduction to desktop apps. I havent had any experience with some of the other languages mentioned here.
You can do some simple stuff in Java with very little headache, as compared to some other languages that require hundreds of lines of code.
Just depends if you have been exposed to OO programming in your web experience
Consider VB.NET (not "classic" vb!) as an easy-to-start-with high-level language that can help you get your foot in the door; then get up to speed with C# as well. The two are interchangable--VB.NET and C# are really just different dialects of .NET.
There's three things VB.NET has going for it over C# for beginner programmers:
VB.NET tends to be a more descriptive (some would say chatty) language
Where C# uses symbols VB.NET will use (slightly) more descriptive words. After a while VB.NET will probably be chatty to the point it annoys you, but by then you should be quite comfortable with .NET and switching to C# will be fairly trivial
Slightly more relaxed syntax
C# will gripe if you leave off parenthesis on method calls, and gripe if you add them to Property accessors--VB isn't quite as picky. It won't let you go haywire with bad syntax (like HTML) but it won't gripe and complain over every little detail
Better pre-compilation parsing
If you work with Visual Studio in both languages you'll notice it will show most compiler errors and warnings for VB.NET right away. C# will wait until you try to compile to tell you that there's errors in your code. The difference isn't huge (C# will warn you for most errors after a delay) but it can be a concentration buster to think you've just pulled off a method and found out it's 10 errors away from compiling (4 of which are because you left the () off a method call).
Once you learn the main features of .NET it's easy to learn the C# equivalency and transition if you want to; and at some point you might decide that VB.NET is a bit too chatty and opt for C# (pretty much what I did).
The only catch to VB.NET is that you should get in the habit of always adding two lines to the top of your code files; they'll help you out immensely in terms of not letting you do stupid things :)
Option Strict On
Option Explicit On
Here's a real short example of the "words vs. symbols"... you'll see there's not much difference other than some brackets in C# and some extra words describing what's happening in VB.NET
Option Strict On
Option Explicit On
Imports System
Imports System.Windows.Forms
<Serializable> _
Public Class MyClass
Inherits SomeBaseClass
Implements SomeInterface
Public Shared Sub DoSomething()
For each item as Object in SomeCollection
Debug.Writeline(item.ToString)
Next
End Sub
Public Sub SomeInterfaceMethod() Implements SomeInterface.SomeInterfaceMethod
MessageBox.Show("Grrblah!")
End Sub
End Class
using System;
using System.Windows.Forms;
using System.Diagnostics;
[Serializable]
public class MyClass : SomeBaseClass, SomeInterface
{
public static void DoSomething()
{
foreach(Object item in SomeCollection)
{
Debug.WriteLine(item.ToString());
}
}
public void SomeInterfaceMethod()
{
MessageBox.Show(#"Grrblah!");
}
}
Try not to fall in the 'must-be-cross-platform' trap. If you're just beginning, that shouldn't be what's on your mind. I can't speak for everyone, but I myself, and I have seen this happen to others, got caught in this early on and didn't get anywhere because I was always trying to find things that were cross platform, and just because they are cross platform doesn't mean they are the best suited for your situation, especially early on.
When you become proficient at a language, you will know how to port and make things cross platform. Don't choose something solely because it is advertised as being cross platform, despite the fact that most languages today are, don't feel the need to ignore other languages that, while not necessarily platform specific, seem to be better on certain platforms, such as C# for Windows and Objective-C for Mac, which are both great languages in my opinion.
If you want to learn something that benefits you in web development as well as in desktop development, I would go with Ruby. You can look into Ruby on Rails for web development. Ruby is also pretty cross platform and you can develop desktop applications with it. There are also various bindings, so for example you can write Mac apps with it and even have access to .Net with Iron Ruby, if need be.
Python is also a possibility.
I'm looking for a programming language. It should be an easy language to learn, and should have a Garbage Collector. It should be a basic language with features like basic types (integer, boolean), arrays and etc, and I should write the framework.
It is for a game editor I want to write. The editor's designer will write the code of the UI in this programming language. The framework will be a 2D graphics and audio framework, and in the future it'll be 3D too.
I thought about the new Go language, but it doesn't have much support and theres no binding to OpenGL and etc.
Any ideas?
Thanks.
The obvious two are [C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_(programming_language)) or C++. However, [D](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_(programming_language)) is closer to Java and C# given that it has a garbage collector in the standard, as well as an alternative standard library that is fairly closer to Java than the C++ standard library. The downside with D is that they tools are not as mature as C++ or C and the community isn't as large.
The obvious solution though it to look down the list of compiled languages on wikipedia and see which you like the look of.
Well, that's a fairly broad question and without more specific requirements it is difficult to give a focused answer, but it sounds like C (or C++) would fit the bill for you. The languages you described all owe their syntax to C. C will compile to native code. C is basic language in that there is not much to learn beyond the basic syntax and it has all the basic primitives that you require.
Now that you've added the requirement of a garbage collected language, I suppose that you could try Go, but that language is not mature and there's always a risk there.
If you don't want to manage memory all by yourself like C or C++, you can try the new Go language. It compiles to native code (albeit for Linux and MacOSX only for now) and comes with a basic framework that can be easily replaced with your own framework.
It has a very active user base, so IMO it is possible to mature quickly.
You may want to look at Lua.
Lua is a relatively tiny language which manages to be capable and universal with just a few concepts. The BNF specification for the whole language fits easily on one page. It has numbers, booleans, tables and functions, and surprisingly that's all the datatypes it needs. It can even work in an object-oriented fashion.
There's a compiler, Luac, that compiles Lua to bytecode.
Lua is already being used as a UI programming language for games. Addons for World of Warcraft and a few other games are programmed in Lua. I believe Lua is a very good fit for this kind of task.
You want OpenGL? OK... http://luagl.wikidot.com/ is an OpenGL library for Lua.
Since we don't know what you want to do, I don't know what are the chances we success. Therefor, what about a language where you have to set the probability of your statement to fail :
Meet GOTO++.
Don't say "thanks you", it's on me.
Enjoy a challenge?
Try go.
Here's a tech talk by rob pike, and here is a discussion group: http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/topics
.
C++ is Great, it's not scripting lang, so you don't even need a scripting host.
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Functional languages are good because they avoid bugs by eliminating state, but also because they can be easily parallelized automatically for you, without you having to worry about the thread count.
As a Win32 developer though, can I use Haskell for some DLL files of my application? And if I do, is there a real advantage that would be taken automatically for me? If so, what gives me this advantage? The compiler?
Does F# parallelize functions you write across multiple cores and CPUs automatically for you? Would you ever see the thread count in Task Manager increase?
How can I start using Haskell in a practical way, and will I really see some benefits if I do?
It seems like the book Real World Haskell is just what you're looking for. You can read it free online.
F# does not contain any magic pixie dust that will pass functions off to different CPUs or machines. F#/Haskell and other functional programming languages make it easier for you to write functions that can be processed independent of the thread or CPU they were created on.
I don't feel right posting a link here to a podcast I participate in. It seems a little off, but in the Herding Code episode, where we talked with Matt Podwysocki, we asked the same question and he gave some interesting answers. There are also a lot of good links relating to functional programming in that episode. I found one link titled "Why Functional Programming Matters". That may provide some answers for you.
This might also be interesting:
"Real World Functional Programming"
Examples are in F# and C#, but the theory is fairly generic.
From what I've read (pre-release) it is definitely interesting, but so far I think it is making me want to stick more and more with C#, using libraries like Parallel Extensions.
You didn't mention, but I'm assuming, that you're using C++. One potentially easy way to get into functional is via C++/CLI to F#. C++ contains "magic pixie dust" (called IJW: It Just Works) to allow you to call into and out of managed code. With this, calling F# code is almost as simple as it is from C#.
I've used this in one program (FreeSWITCH), which is written entirely in C/C++. With a single managed C++/CLI (use the /clr switch), it magically transitions into managed code, and from there, I can go load my F# plugins and execute them. To make things even easier for deployment, F# can statically link all its dependencies, so you don't need to deploy the F# runtime files. One other thing that makes CLR code attractive is that you can pass managed code (delegates) to C code, and the runtime automatically makes a thunk for you.
If you decide to go the Haskell way, the feature you'll be looking for is FFI: Foreign Function Interface. However, I don't think it'll give you the same level of integration as C++/CLI with F#.
I'm currently learning Haskell myself. When you start out learning it, it doesn't seem very intriguing, because the learning experience is nothing like learning a language like C#.
It's a whole new world, but I noticed I could write very very complex expressions in just a few lines of code. When I looked back at the code, it was much more concise; it was small and tight.
I'm absolutely loving it! You can indeed write real-world programs that will be smaller, easier to maintain, and much more complex than most other languages allow. I vote for you to learn it!!
Since you mention Win32 and DLLs, I presume you're working with unmanaged code. In that case, GHC will work very well for you. Late last year I wrote a DDE server under Windows using FFI to talk to the Microsoft DDE libraries, and, surprisingly, it was an extremely pleasant experience (especially given that I'm a Unix guy).
Haskell's FFI is powerful (even supporting, e.g., callbacks into Haskell functions from C or other libraries), and having Haskell's type checking when writing C-level code is like a dream come true.
That last point is one of the major advantages of Haskell: the type system is amazing. That said, it's like any powerful tool; it needs time and effort to make good use of it.
So yes, it is possible to start out writing small bits of code in Haskell that link into the rest of your code (though you may find it easier to start with small Haskell programs that link to your other code), and it's well worth spending a fair amount of time learning about this and using it wherever you can. You may end up like me, planning a fairly major project tightly integrated with Windows code (in my case, a sophisticated Excel add-in) in Haskell.